"It's true, the plan is for five-player capped grouped dungeons. Ten-player capped raid dungeons. As well as Twenty-five-player capped epic raid dungeons. We wanted to focus on smaller raid environments, primarily to allow for greater individual player contribution. Also, in these smaller environments, hybrid classes have more opportunity to shine."

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=9467359&s=blizzard&tmp=1#blizzard

More: http://www.1up.com/do/previewPage?cId=3152830

holy crap, that 1up article is chock-full-o info

Paladins get a castable AoE taunt
Shammys get bloodlust
PvP ladder grind is gone
Scalable dungeon difficulty (this is the 2nd or 3rd time that's been mentioned)

The PVP ladder thing pisses me off a bit. I like the kill for honor thing and knowing that it'll get you up in rank. But now honor is going towards other things so I can just buy items or go up in rank to get items that I can't afford yet, because I spent all of my honor towards rank. I loved you Blizzard, now I don't know anymore. Though I like the new raid Idea so we'll be ab;e to do the good dungeons.

unf unf unf unf unf

Ouch. This is going to cause a lot of problems for current high end raiding guilds, I'm afraid :(

Awesome, thanks for posting this.

Ouch. This is going to cause a lot of problems for current high end raiding guilds, I'm afraid :(


They can adjust.

I really can't say how happy these changes make me (well, except for the pvp thing, which I don't care about). As the organizer of most of our raids, I dread the move to 40. It introduces too much BS. Organizing 20 folks is already hard enough.

Not to mention the fact that a 40-man will probably kill my computer.

But 25 sounds good. That's manageable. Assuming they stick to the loot distribution systems they've been devloping in AQ, Naxx and the like, you can start raiding a place and not have to spend the next 6 months getting everyone their gear.

It wouldn't surprise me if they added something bigger in a later patch. But I like the dev's desire to try something new.

And, Pallies can finally tank outside of Strath/Scholo! How awesome is that? Now they can stop complaining about being priests in plate and start whining about something new!

I'm really interested to see what happens, because it completely changes the how people will progress through content -- the group that goes to AQ is going to be completely different from the group you need for Medivh.

I think AQ/BWL/MC will become content dead-ends once BC is released.

I mean, if you hit 60 and you have a choice between going to the Outlands and finding 39 other folks who want to hit MC for the rest of your Raid 1 gear, which are you going to pick?

Folks will go back and hit MC at 70. And they'll be able to do it with 25 man raids. Sure the balance will be all messed up, but they won't care.

So those leveling up now may not ever progress through a current 40-man as a 40-man.

Heh, maybe Blizz will cap those places at 25!

Hopefully this will make PvP what it is supposed to be a system of who is the best instead of a system of who has the most time.

PvP will likely always be about time investment. From what I understood of the article, it's changing to be based on your contribution points, meaning the more you kill the more you amass, regardless of how those kills were achieved.

It may also be true that current raid guilds can adjust -- they will have to adjust -- but it's still going to cause a great deal of problems if they eliminate 40 man content, particularly since shamans and paladins are being introduced as classes for both sides.

Think about the number 40 for a minute. As it stands, there are 8 classes available to either side: Mage, Hunter, Druid, Priest, Rogue, Warrior, Paladin / Shaman, Warlock. This means that are approx. 5 spots for each class in any given 40 man raid. Adding a ninth class to each side and reducing the max limit of raids is going to cause a great deal of stress and tension for high end raid leaders, and their job already sucks pretty badly.

so that means guilds like ours will be coveted.

Fuck 40 man raids.

Game was never designed for them. Read the original design specs and you'll see the truth.

It's nice the hybrids will supposedly have to heal less and be more like how they where intended to be. Kind of sucks for the priests to have all that burden now though, especially if the itemization continues down the path it's currently following. Meh.

Think about the number 40 for a minute. As it stands, there are 8 classes available to either side: Mage, Hunter, Druid, Priest, Rogue, Warrior, Paladin / Shaman, Warlock. This means that are approx. 5 spots for each class in any given 40 man raid. Adding a ninth class to each side and reducing the max limit of raids is going to cause a great deal of stress and tension for high end raid leaders, and their job already sucks pretty badly.


But thinking about the number 25 is more fun. 9 classes. And 9 doesn't go into 25. That's great! Because now you have to make choices. Which 2 classes are you going to short? Tactical decision making, hooray!

EXACTLY. I love tactics. I love coming up with balance. I love finding ways AROUND the Perfect Group. I'm so excited for BC. <3 <3 <3

Think about the number 40 for a minute. As it stands, there are 8 classes available to either side: Mage, Hunter, Druid, Priest, Rogue, Warrior, Paladin / Shaman, Warlock. This means that are approx. 5 spots for each class in any given 40 man raid. Adding a ninth class to each side and reducing the max limit of raids is going to cause a great deal of stress and tension for high end raid leaders, and their job already sucks pretty badly.


But thinking about the number 25 is more fun. 9 classes. And 9 doesn't go into 25. That's great! Because now you have to make choices. Which 2 classes are you going to short? Tactical decision making, hooray!



cough <hunters>cough

Think about the number 40 for a minute. As it stands, there are 8 classes available to either side: Mage, Hunter, Druid, Priest, Rogue, Warrior, Paladin / Shaman, Warlock. This means that are approx. 5 spots for each class in any given 40 man raid. Adding a ninth class to each side and reducing the max limit of raids is going to cause a great deal of stress and tension for high end raid leaders, and their job already sucks pretty badly.


But thinking about the number 25 is more fun. 9 classes. And 9 doesn't go into 25. That's great! Because now you have to make choices. Which 2 classes are you going to short? Tactical decision making, hooray!



cough <hunters>cough


Hehe, not too hard shorting a class we only have 2-3 of. :)

YAY this is the best ever and makes my heart smile. :)

With all due respect, it doesn't really matter how the game was originally designed, what matters is how it's operating now.

As for finding ways around the perfect group, I have a feeling this change isn't going to facilitate that as easily as even that developer is saying. Smaller groups have to be tighter. 40 mans have far more leeway for imbalance than smaller raids -- even though 40 goes into 8 perfectly, we rarely have precisely 5 of each class (5 warlocks in a raid, ha ha ha). You will need an even MORE precise group make up for high end, low entrance capped dungeons.

Perhaps I am wrong and the promises about hybridization aren't empty. But Blizzard has offered enough empty promises in the past such that I'm rather skeptical.

All I will say right now is FUCKING AWESOME!!!!! YES!!!!!

And with all due respect, I can appreciate the fact that this will have some negative impact on raiding guilds currently doing 40 man - they'll definitely need to re-design their groups, and it will be chaotic. But frankly, that isn't this guild. This is GOOD news for us. Very good news.

As for finding ways around the perfect group, I have a feeling this change isn't going to facilitate that as easily as even that developer is saying. Smaller groups have to be tighter. 40 mans have far more leeway for imbalance than smaller raids -- even though 40 goes into 8 perfectly, we rarely have precisely 5 of each class (5 warlocks in a raid, ha ha ha). You will need an even MORE precise group make up for high end, low entrance capped dungeons.


So what you're saying is that a really hard 25-man will require that you find a group of people that all have to pay attention, all have to know their roles and that play together well.

And the problem with this is?

Honestly, if a 40-man allows all this leeway, and allows for people to slack off most of the time (as appears to be the case in MC, at least), then what's so 'epic' about that? Yes, I epcially clicked my macro button for 3 hours. Fork over the purple.

And people say that a 5-man is only accomplished if there's a warrior, a mage, and a priest, which is a lie perpetrated by people who can't handle a little challenge and thinking outside the box. What 25-man content means is that more people all over the game will get an opportunity to experience all the new things, because it's a billion times easier to find twenty-four nonassholes than it is to find thirty-nine nonassholes, and that's wonderful.

What Aro said is the big thing. ALL raiding is a challenge - whether it's 20 man, 25 man, 40 man, etc. What this really means is that FAR more players will be able to experience it and enjoy it than just hardcore raiding guilds that can field 40 people easily. I really hope that's not the reason why so many raiders are already against this - the fact that others like casual players might get to experience brand new instances at the same time they do, so it's not so "elite" anymore. Overall, it just means more people can enjoy everything the game has to offer, and that simple fact overrules ANYTHING.

I would have to disagree that it doesn't matter how the game was originally designed. Also respectfully, of course. :) I think it does matter - Blizzard has always said that they want as many people as possible to experience the entire game, and right now, they can't. Only 1% of people are hardcore raiders, and those are the only people that even have a shot at places like Naxx. That's what has always disappointed many casual players; we don't even get to SEE the endgame content. (Of course, there are those that just want free epixxx, but like Gleja said, I don't see how that's any different from the 38 people in MC that don't have to know what the hell they're doing.)

Something I've heard from virtually everyone in raiding guilds, even you Deme, is that only one or two people had to be able to pay attention in MC and BWL to complete it. That's why so many raiding guilds had such a hard time with C'Thun - suddenly all 40 had to pay attention. Those other people weren't doing what so many consider the point of the 40-mans - the people who put in the time and work getting loot. Those people weren't putting in time or effort, they were just showing up and coasting on people's coattails. All they had to do was be willing to give up enough nights to rack up DKP. Understand I don't mean YOU here, Deme. You go to the new instances and die and rack up repair bills.

Like Jam, I'm just excited that now more people will be ABLE to enjoy everything the game has to offer, even if they aren't willing to give up the same night every week. If there is different loot for the different difficulty levels, the "hardcore" raiders will still get uber loot that less "hardcore" people don't have, but the rest of peons who have chosen (and it is a choice, I do recognize that) not to commit to the same nights and same times every week will still get to TRY it.

I realize it will shake up raiding as it works now, but honestly, I feel that if the hardcore guilds are as good players as they like to say they are, they will adapt. I don't think it's fair to say that Blizzard shouldn't try to go back to what they originally designed just because that isn't how it's working now. That argument is really moot now anyway, because the way of things is: now it's going to be 25-man, so raiders will have to put on big girl panties and deal with it.

It's definitely going to be harder, and the raid groups are going to have to be tighter. However, every raider I've ever met has said that they feel that the people who put in the hard work should get the rewards - so it really shouldn't be a problem that it's making things harder for them. Raiders have said all along that they deserve having loot and experiences no one else has because they work harder, and fight harder bosses, so working harder should not be any new thing for them. They'll still be the ones getting the world firsts, and if the loot differs on difficulty settings for dungeons, they'll still have loot no one else has. They'll still have to have skills. This just levels the playing field so that it's ONLY skills you need, not skills AND time.

I'm glad Blizzard is moving toward making the challenges the sort that can be met with skill and not just time, because I have chosen to do other things in life than just Warcraft. The people who don't will still be free to devote all their hobby time to Warcraft. It's just that now, sacrificing time won't give them any special advantage if they don't have skill as well.

And all I can say to that is: yay.