I know this is long. If you can't read it now that's ok... come back to it later.

Casual Raiding Pre-Burning Crusade

ZG and AQ20 were the first two attempts by Blizzard to let casual players experience raid content. With a little bit of practice groups that were no where near as organized as top raiding guilds could make some real progress in there. Provided they could find enough people to fill 20 spots. With the progress that a few people made by researching the strategies needed everyone that wanted to to get inside could be there when we finally managed to smite Hakkar.

Casual Raiding In TBC

The thing that struck me when we were entering Kara for the first time was just how useless I was. I couldn't sap - I couldn't do any kind of CC at all in there. The only job I had was to do damage and I wasn't even doing that as well as I should. At the time there were only a dozen or so people keyed so I wasn't in any real danger of being replaced but I really didn't feel like I was contributing my 1/10 of the effort. We all know that this guild will give everyone a chance to get in there but what I really wanted was to be needed. My limited reading of the official rogue forums said that I should be on top of the damage meters. No matter what. I was specced combat daggers and that was supposed to be the best spec for PvE but I just wasn't doing enough. I really had to start reading up and eventually had to open myself up to criticism from the unwashed masses. If you've ever posted on the general forums you know that people can be pretty harsh. But if you ask with an open mind to criticism you can usually get some valid info in between the "fuckin noob" flames.

We have always prided ourselves on being the kind of guild that will let people spec any way they want to play. And that should never change. That being said, if you want to be part of a team that approaches something this difficult in the game, you cannot be casual about the way that you prepare yourself.

Casual Raiding Now in WotLK

Raiding is more accessible in WoW than it has ever been. Maybe the game is easier, maybe players have a better understanding of basic concepts. If you've been around for a while and raided with your role (Tank/DPS/Heal) in TBC it is fairly easy to jump in right after hitting level 80 and do ok. If you're new in this expansion to the game or your class you're going to need to spend some time getting to know your job. Tanks should have a basic understanding of how to pick up targets quickly and keep them off your squishies. Healers should be able to move out of the fire and heal the tank and raid at the same time. DPS should understand why agility is more important than attack power (or whatever stats you crazy casters require). Please do some heroics. Please figure out what reputations give you the easy upgrades out of those blues. Please do the Icecrown and Storm Peaks quests for easy to nab blue gear.

Things that I learned as a rogue:

I just finished a rather large entry in our wiki for what I've taken away from research I did. The full post can be found here. Here are a couple small points from that post.

1. Get your stats up to respectable levels
2. Faster is better.
3. Look at your spec. If you have an unconventional spec know why you've decided to put points where others haven't.
4. Cycles for DPS classes will greatly increase damage output.

OK I see what you're saying but what's the point?

Well the point is this. We are not a hardcore guild. When hardcore guilds run into problems they tell the people that aren't preforming well to shape up or get out. They tell them how to spec. They tell them how to play. They tell them how they should be having fun.

We will never do that. I don't want to do that. I have enough trouble in instances giving advice to people who haven't asked for it as it is. I have been in this guild for as long as I have because I like and respect all the people that are in it. So who am I to tell them how to have fun playing their game?

But we find ourselves at a point where the challenges we are faced with can't just be walked past with enough casual attempts. I don't want to tell someone that they can't be the spec that they want to be... what I would really like is for them to find out why they want to be that spec and do some research to find out how they can make that spec work. Blizzard has designed a very complex game with thousands of "right" ways to play it. I found out what I needed to work on in order to help us advance.

And that's what we all really want to do. Advance. We all want to see the new content. But deep down we all also want to beat that content. We want to kick the shit out of it and then teabag it while yelling KEK. Don't we now.

If you've had a chance to run any heroics you'll see pretty quickly how freakin hard they are. But the truth is that they really aren't harder than Kara. The truth is that there are a few people that have done a lot of research on their classes that can pull more than their fair share of the 10 man raid. But we're not going to be able to clear it unless everyone is also pulling the weight.

I know that I've been exceedingly lucky with drops. There are a couple items I have that I really had to work for by running instances over and over and over but I know that in general I've been really lucky. But I also know that I am not getting better just because of these drops. I have put in the money for gems and enchants and have spent the 90g on EVERY helm I get to put a glyph on it. I wasn't getting the drop I wanted for a mainhand and who the fuck knows if it will ever drop so I did the rep grind to get one that was comparable. I put Mongoose on it knowing that tomorrow I might get an upgrade to it. This section is just as applicable to the soon-to-be-released new Raid Instance as it was to us having trouble clearing Kara.

Help meh!

I'm asking people to ask questions here or in pms. If you need advice on something and aren't finding it on the forums ask one of the officers. I don't know how to play a druid healer but if you're having trouble ask me and I will help you find the information you need. There are some very well read people in this guild and if you ask them for advice on how to play your spec/class better they would love to help you or point you in the right direction.

Addons

We are not forcing people to use addons they don't want to use but there are two addons which will really and truly help you be a better contributor to these difficult instance attempts.

Omen - The built in Threat meter and changes to threat mechanics have made Omen less important but it is still VERY helpful. Some boss fights require you to stay below 2 or more tanks and having a general idea of when you're about to pull threat is quite useful.

SW Stats/Recount - These kind of addons can easily bring out the worst in people. For a long time in this guild we made fun of people that used them because it made them look like they were showing off. Here's the thing though: I didn't know I wasn't doing enough damage until I knew how much damage I was doing. I could see when I had bigger crits but who the hell knows how all those little hits were adding up. If you're serious about success in Naxx and you're a dpser you'll want to know how you're measuring up. It's not a contest... it's not about making you feel like you're not doing well enough... it's about judging whether or not you think you need to up your damage. It also keeps track of healing and several other statistics on the run. (Hunters and warlocks don't forget to set your pet's damage to be merged with your own)

Gems:

Don't walk around with empty sockets. Gems are much cheaper in Wrath than they were in TBC so there really isn't any excuse. If you're signing up for Naxx and expecting a fair roll on gear drops it's only fair that you spend a little gold on gems and enchants. We don't make it a rule that you have to spend money on your gear but when we start having trouble on a boss we can normally one shot and people start inspecting the other members of the raid to try to figure out why things aren't going so well...

Moving Forward

We have 31 characters keyed for Kara right now and only one or two of those are the same player. That means that when I am in there there are almost 20 people that want my spot. We've been talking about having two separate runs going for some time now but we can't do that yet. We can't do it because we don't have 20 characters that are strong enough to progress divided. If this was still ZG or AQ20 we would all be in there and the efforts of the few would drive the whole group through. But we need help. We want everyone to get a chance in there. And we want everyone to feel like they are needed... because you will be. We do need you.This section is mainly applicable to TBC but the points are still valid

Come to Raids Prepared

We will all have times when we forget to bring something we should have or didn't have time after work to get everything ready in time. But please don't make a habit out of it. Here's a little checklist of things that you should be bringing.

- Enough Potions/Flasks for the run
Everyone else is spending gold on them, you think you're special?
- Enough food for the run
Yes, floor fish will occasionally be there but don't expect it (it's not cheap so thank those that bring it) - and if you die be ready to buff yourself back up without asking for a second helping.
- Multiple sets if you're capable of filling multiple roles
Thanks! We need more people like you (says the rogue)
- A good attitude
We're here to have fun and not be confrontational. We don't always one shot bosses so don't get frustrated with wipes or changes in tactics.
- Know your class/role
At this stage you should be ready to do anything your character is able to. (Addons to decurse or heal efficiently, macros to misdirect, experience to pull adds off raid members)


That's it. I'm making this post because I want people to be able to help themselves and not be told how to play. Hopefully that all comes across.

Looking forward to the next run!!

Fox

I know of at least 2 very nerdy priests that would be happy to help answer any priesty-type questions.

Fox is very true, in re: being the best you can be, maximizing fun for you as well as appreciating the time of the other nine people rocking out with you.

Do research. Maximize your gear. Make use of the bounty the guild is offering (gemcutters who work for a discount to guildies, cooks who will hook you up with buff foods, people who might be able to offer a new insight into spell cycles or talent points you might not have considered, to infinity and beyond).

A nota bene to Fox's recommendation that you look at your dps numbers: you are rarely, if ever, going to be number one. You may not be number two or three consistently for that matter, especially if on some fights your job alternates dps and crowd-control, or dps and off-healing, or whatever you versatile things do. However, if you are dps in a ten-man raid, and you are not in the top five of a group that has at least two tanks and two healers, you may want to think seriously about looking a lot more closely at *everything Fox just said*.

I have the vast majority of enchants available (though there are still some that elude me... curse you, savagery enchant!). Browse the enchanting list at www.thottbot.com and if I can do the enchant, I'll be happy to so if I'm about. I also have a stock of arcane dust / essences / shards that I keep which I can offer if you're a few mats short for an enchant.

Same here - I don't have QUITE as many enchants as Frenial, there are a handful that he has that I don't yet, but I am 375 on Jamisia and have several of the world drop ones, so feel free to ask - we don't charge for that! :)

YES

COME TO THE DARK SIDE

WE HAVE COOKIES


... ahem

Anyway, I have always been deeply mistrustful of damage meters, even though SWstats is the only addon I use, and the reason why is because raw numbers rarely paint the full picture of an individual's usefulness. I don't discount them entirely, and particularly not SWstats, because they provide a rough guideline of what's going on, but it very much bothers me when people look to them and SOLELY them as a measurement of 'worth' in a raid.

However, what bothers me MORE

WHAT BOTHERS ME THE FUCKING MOST

Is when you claim you don't look to those meters and you do, you fucking do. I do not blame people for their opinions, I ask only that you own up to them.

And I shall own up to mine.

I place some stock in SWstats, because it offers first of all a complete breakdown of the specific skills any given player is using, which is very helpful in diagnosing issues of efficiency in playstyle, and in providing a more complete picture of facts than simple raw numbers provide. For example, let's say you have two characters. One character does smashingly well on the simple meter, another character is a bit below character A, not that much, but still a fair amount. Both characters have the ability to CC/stun/in some other way control a mob. Swstats will inform you if character A was just mashing damage buttons and forgetting the CC part. That, to me, is its primary usefulness.

Another thing to keep in mind is that, ALL GEAR BEING EQUAL, Blizzard has established a certain hierarchy in terms of the dps classes. It's not an ironclad thing, but from my many long nights of raidz I have always experienced it to hold more or less true. But again, it assumes equal gear between everyone, and not everyone's gear is equal. So there are a lot of factors to consider. Just keep in mind that you could be doing absolutely everything right and not seeing the numbers you want owing to the facts that A) your gear needs works and B) you are simply not meant to outshine other dps classes in raw numbers -most of the time-.

What I liked most about Fox's most excellent post was that he never pointed to a specific add-on or spec or weapon and said, "That's the solution."

There's no magic bullet to being a good group player. All you can do is what Fox did, take advantage of the tools available to you. You have to do the work, the tools can't do it for you. Damage meters are a tool, this forum is a tool, I'm a tool (har har). Gear, specs, enchants, buffs, gems, etc. - all tools.

I like to think of it this way: those expensive home gyms are great tools - if you use them. If not, they just gather dust.

So if you've been to Kara & felt, "Man, that could have gone better." Or if you've been to Kara and it went great. Even if you've never been to Kara -- take full advantage of the tools at your disposal. I guarantee the end result will be a more fun WoW experience.

Wait..Gleja are you telling me my Soloflex machine will work in Kara? AWESOME! Now how do I fit it into my bag?

I think you need all four primal mooncloth for that.

Related: I just updated the Buffs/Enchants/Potions page in the wiki. http://www.victorious-secret.org/forums/showthread.php?t=7111

Thanks for the advice. I downloaded those mods and searched for Paladin advice on the web. I also downloaded Quartz which I heard recommended for mages. However, I must not be searching right because the advice I found was mostly obsolete. Do any of you know a good source for this advice? Jam and Brendar are prot, right? How about Ingomar; is she holy?
Any other Paladins? Do we have enough priests? Should I change to Prot too?
Another important way to improve play is practice, challenging practice. I heard in vent last week some VS'ers saying that they improved their play by their runs in Heroic mode. I don't know if I can do those; do you need to be revered with someone for that? If I can't do that, what can I do? I can pug but those are usually only lessons in frustration.
Another benefit of practice is that it shows our progress. How will we know if I'm good enough for Kara if all I do is kill boars? :)

The EU forums have been consolidating useful class threads, which are a great resource.

Here's the Pally one.
http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=305840625&sid=1

Ingomar is indeed holy, but I have never raided, so I can't really throw you any advice there.

I can tell you what I use when I heal five-mans, though. My main healing spell is Flash of Light, Rank 7. With enough +heal, it does fine during most trash fights, and some boss fights. I also have Holy Light Rank 5 and 9 out. I use 5 for medium-sized heals, and only use the big one when I REALLY need to catch up.

Blessing of Protection is the best spell ever. Usually I use it to save a mage or a priest. In bigger parties, I consider it one of my personal goals to keep the clothie healers alive, since I can take more hits than they can, and also have that nifty holy talent that prevents interruption to heals while getting whacked.

Divine Shield I've been using a lot like a fade lately; if it's up and I get healing aggro, I pop the shield and most of the time the mobs go back to the tank. This helps because then the tank doesn't have to come get the mobs and run around, and also because then you don't have to hit your push to talk button in the middle of healing to ASK the tank to come get them. I tend to use DS instead of the other shield because you can still hit things with DS up if you need to, whereas the other one is for running away mostly. I believe the other one lasts longer though.

In boss fights, don't be like me and forget to pop Divine Illumination. If you time DI just right, you can actually get a lot of mana back. I try to remember to pop it when I'm at about half mana. The talent makes all your heals cost half mana, but if you get a crit and the mana-regaining talent pops, you get the un-DI base cost back. So you can cast a spell, theoretically, for 300 mana, crit, and get back 600 mana. This is supersweet.

Cleanse is quite possibly the best talent paladins in general have. When you're on heal duty, you can cleanse a LOT of dots, and debuffs that reduce armor, and poisons. It's hawt. Make sure you keep an eye out for anything you can cleanse, as a lot of times just getting the dot off your tank/mage/other healer will save them hp and you & the other healers mana that would have been spent healing the dot damage. I like to yell DENIED to myself while using cleanse. I try to keep this to a minimum on vent.

Something I learned last night. If you have a shadow priest with you, or a healing priest that is doing damage for your run while you heal simply because they're generally better at damage than we are, and you have a fight that's heavy on a lot of demons/undead, it might be best to let your priest heal that fight and you do damage, since it's one of the occasions that we DO have a better chance of doing dps than the priest. We had a hard time with the tinkerers in Mechanar last night until Gleja and I switched and he healed and I helped hit things. Don't forget holy wrath! When I got that off properly last night it took most of the tinkerers down to half health in one blow, which was super hawt.

The EU forums have been consolidating useful class threads, which are a great resource.

Here's the Pally one.
http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=305840625&sid=1

Ooo, thanks Gleja!

Hey Jafn!

Yep, right now Bren and I are both Prot and Ingomar is also Holy. We're split right down the middle! :)

I think the key things are really to play what you WANT to play, be willing to do some research which it sounds like you already are, and of course practice.

To better answer your questions - heroics are a special mode of Outland instances. It's intended for any of the Outland 5-mans. They are EXTREMELY difficult versions of the normal 5 man where all of the mobs (no matter what level the instance was previously) will be level 70+ and will have new abilities. The bosses in particular are generally far harder, more powerful, more health, etc. They're typically about equal to Karazhan in that they ARE doable but they require practice, patience, a willingness to die a lot, etc. You also will get generally better loot in a 5 man on Heroic mode than you will on a normal mode including two major things - a guaranteed epic off the end boss (which may or may not be useful) and you WILL get 1 Badge of Justice from each boss killed (all members of the party will get one by looting em). Badges can be turned in, in bulk, like money, for major epic upgrades. Look at the pink Na'ru in the middle of Shat, near the portals to the Azeroth cities - if you talk to em you can see the items that you can turn in Badges for.

In order to be eligible to hit a 5 man on heroic mode, you must have hit Revered with the appropriate faction for that area and you must have bought the heroic key from the Quartermaster for that area. For instance, in order to do any of the Hellfire dungeons, like Ramparts, on heroic, you need to hit Revered or higher with Honor Hold and buy the key (tyically 9 gold) from their Quartermaster and then you can go in.

Either way, you're absolutely right that the best way to get practice is to do difficult runs. That should include the later 5 mans if you haven't done them to death, ANY of the 5 mans on heroic mode, and of course Karazhan. I think the biggest thing, simply, is the willingness to learn, try new things, and listen to any suggestions that people might have. That's all that really matters. Beyond that, you're right, it's just a matter of getting in there and learning. :)

I think as far as spec goes you should do whatever you enjoy most. I know we can definitely use Holy Paladins - they're great healers, and there's a ton of gear out there for you. If you are still enjoying that, then you should stick with it IMHO. I don't know that much about Healadins right now, but I was wanting to do my own research anyway so I'll let you know anything I find or learn.

yay! i r keyd. must read now. blegh.

I think its time to bump this thread.


Keep in mind when you're heading to Kara runs that 9 other people are depending on you. These runs are not mandatory but if you do sign up make sure you're doing your part so we can continue to progress through Kara.

- READ THE BEGINNING OF THIS THREAD

- Be at the meeting stone on time.
- Make sure your addons (if you use them) are up to date and working
- Get your gear enchanted and socketed.
- Read the wiki

I think I'm finally being released from Florida so I'll see you guys in there soon!

I was devising a spreadsheet to evaluate gear when I ran across something interesting in the Wiki. It said there was a penalty to "+ to heal" for using lower level heals.

Let B = bonus to heal
P = player level when they can train that level of heal
L = player's current level
A = actual bonus to heal

A = B(P+5)/L

Is this true? If it is, the Blessing of Light level 7 and below, with +1200 healing, is less healing per second of casting than the max Flash of Light. Blessing of Light Level 9 is still a good compromise between max FoL and max BoL.

Basically. More here, http://www.wowwiki.com/Formulas:Plus_damage_and_Plus_healing

Priests with high enough +heal used to just spam their low level Heal spell, which was nice for mana conservation. Downranking still works, but it's a trickier balance now.

Aro pointed me to this spreadsheet:

http://www.iamthewookie.com/Paladin.xls

But it might go a little overboard. :D Depends on what you're looking for!

Bumped for new WotLK content. EVERYONE PLEASE HAVE A LOOK.

For the record, anyone that sees anything I need to be doing better or that would help me please feel free to speak up via PM or in game or what have you. I know a ton about leveling up and all, but not as much about raiding/end game.

I know none of my gear is enchanted (I will hook up with a chanter later this week,) and I don't think I had anything that was slotted until last night (ditto on gems.)

I'm keeping my agility. Ain't nobody gots jukes like deez.

I'd like to add that for anyone who is not sure on how to improve on their toon, there are a few steps to take:

- Establish a baseline of what you can do (might be against a training dummy, might be against patchwerk)

- Read up on your spec. A good starting point is the elitistjerks forum. There is just so much info available it borders on scary. (link is www.elitistjerks.com, click on forum)

- Make some changes (gear, glyphs, ability rotation, etc) and evaluate the effectiveness of said changes.

-Rinse and repeat.

On the other hand, you can always just ask someone. If they don't know the answer, they will likely be able to point you in the right direction.

Should we change the name of this thread from "Kara's ass" to something else... I mean we don't really do a lot of Kara anymore...

I mean if its understood and everyone's cool with it, then that's ok... but I just thought I'd point it out...