Found this on the forums...
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=2520303832&sid=1

what!!! nooooooo. All that hard work.

Agreed. I wish they hadn't made this change.


If you're not revered with any of the factions there's a pretty darn good chance you can't hack it in a Heroic anyway.

Right? STUPID IDEA.

I agree... this is a bad change. You get to honored status just questing in each area. At least making it revered meant you had to put in a decent amount of effort.

I know it's just a game, but opening up all the good content to the lowest common denominator seems to belittle the work everyone else has done.

I think it's awesome, because the world revolves around me, and this benefits me, therefore it is awesome.

... but seriously. I understand the point being made here. I think a better way would be to make the keys available halfway through honored, or in a quest that pops up when you've run the instance giving the rep a couple of times. Because I can see not wanting someone to run the heroic version before they've run the normal version. But is it REALLY necessary to force someone to play the same normal one again and again and again and again and again, until they're so tired of it the folks who are behind can't find anyone to take them there, because the folks who aren't behind would rather kill themselves with a dull deer antler than see the inside of that instance one more time? I vote no, and I would vote no even if I WERE already revered, because I have never in my life met a single player who ENJOYED the rep grind. Instead, every single player is all, "THANK GOD I NEVER HAVE TO GO TO SCHOLOMANCE, EVER EVER EVER AGAIN!"

... I like Skool....

But is it REALLY necessary to force someone to play the same normal one again and again and again and again and again, until they're so tired of it the folks who are behind can't find anyone to take them there, because the folks who aren't behind would rather kill themselves with a dull deer antler than see the inside of that instance one more time?

I do see your point. Once I hit 70 I calculated I needed to run Shattered Halls six times, Steamvaults six times, and Slabs four times to get reverd in those three areas. That is a lot of repetitive grinds, and will eventually make me hate those areas.

I think the only benefit to grinding out those instances is by the time you're revered you'll probably be geared well enough to have a chance in a heroic.

Though, I still think lowering the threshold for heroics to honored isn't the right answer.

Maybe the better answer is to offer more ways to get rep with people. Have more quests in each area only available once you hit 70. Let the lower instances give more rep per kill. Let the lower instances give you rep past honored. Anything else to give more rep other then grinding the same L70 instance over and over.

/just my $0.02

... I like Skool....

It's funny you say that, because I was actually just thinking the other day that you have the patience, and the fortitude, of a damn SAINT when it comes to doing stuff over and over. Either you genuinely really like to help THAT MUCH, or you are completely and totally child-eatingly insane.

Or perhaps a bit of both. <3

I think the only benefit to grinding out those instances is by the time you're revered you'll probably be geared well enough to have a chance in a heroic.

Though, I still think lowering the threshold for heroics to honored isn't the right answer.

Maybe the better answer is to offer more ways to get rep with people. Have more quests in each area only available once you hit 70. Let the lower instances give more rep per kill. Let the lower instances give you rep past honored. Anything else to give more rep other then grinding the same L70 instance over and over.

/just my $0.02

I don't think it's really the right answer either, because gear is definitely an issue. I don't really care about having the awesomest gear for awesomest factor, but I've learned through experience that if my gear is crap, my mana pool is crap, and this does not a good healer make, and I can see where that's the same for the attribute of your choice for the various classes.

I like your fix, because the rep grind I've minded the least is consortium, because I actually have fun looking for the keys to those prisons, and if I get annoyed with the drop rate there, there's zaxxis insignias, and even the warbeads to farm. So you have a lot of options. It would be nice to have something like that for, say, Honor Hold.

I have revered with CE, HH, and Sha'tar but not lower city. With CE and sha'tar revered seemed to happen without even trying to hard. Both of those area are very good for quests and instances. HH was annoying but easy enough. Just had to find people that actually minded doing Shattered halls.

I do not even want to think about getting revered or exalted with lower city. I am at honored and they want me to do Shadow labs 4.8 times more to get the heroic key. It seems a little crazy. Maybe they could add another instance in that gets you to revered. So you don't have to do the same instance over and over.

Even after all of that they should definetly not allow heroic keys at honored. As of right now I have had such bad pug groups that ever time I check the healer and tank on wowarmory before I go into the instance.

edit: I also love all the different ways to get the consortium rep. In nagrand while you are grinding for consortium rep you can get aldor rep and Kurenai. If you don't need the aldor rep you can sell the bagdes/tokens. Bored of Nagrand go to netherstorm. Also while you are grinding you get a crap load of Netherweave Cloth.

Dude, plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose. Let's take a trip in the time machine!

"But if you take out the attunement requirements for Tempest Keep and Serpentshrine, then all our hard work means NOTHING!!!"

... a little farther back ...

"But if all the new content is 25-man, then ANYBODY can go! Getting 40 people together is the only really hard part, and now that means NOTHING!!!"

... and a little more ...

"But how come you're nerfing Stratholme? We worked HARD on that 10-man raid! 5-man is NOTHING!!!"

More people get a chance to play more things, and that's fantastic. If they fail, they fail. Sucks for them, and either they'll find a way to get better or they won't; that's their business. Nothing has happened to your hard work. Everyone in the world can still see your rep lists on the armory, and if you shelled out ten silver you can wear the exalted tabard. All the work was still there. Nothing happened to it. Folks just don't have to grind it now if they don't want to. How is that bad?

Ultimately, I agree with Arolaide on this.

My first reaction was "OH MY GOD, I SPENT ALL THAT TIME GRINDING REVERED, FOR WHAT???" And then I realized, I haven't been grinding. I enjoy SLabs, I enjoy Shattered Halls, and it's pretty trivial for a Druid to get revered with CenEx once you have 5k in gold (swift flight form quests). I've been doing these instances because I like them or because someone needs help. I haven't done a single instance thinking "wow, I'll be keyed for heroic now!" In fact, I got to revered with CenEx while helping people get their Kara keys.

It does all come down to gear and skill (knowing how to play your class). But just because you're not revered doesn't mean you're not able to take on a heroic. Beam's pretty well geared (in my mind) and only keyed for Coilfang (and Kara). I'm reasonably certain that I could tank some of the HH heroics (probably not SH on heroic), even though I don't have a heroic key for HH.

So, as Aro said, let 'em all in there. If they fail, they fail. There are better measures as to whether or not you'll be successful in an instance than how much rep you have.

All the work was still there. Nothing happened to it. Folks just don't have to grind it now if they don't want to. How is that bad?

One of the harder parts of instances is finding a good group. This is not really difficult if it's an all VS run. More often then not, I like to run things more frequently then I can get a VS group together for. This leads to PUGs.

If every noob with honored rep can get into a heroic, it will make finding a good PUG even tougher. That's not to say just getting revered rep makes you a good player, but it at least means you've played the content enough to be competent at it and probably have good enough gear to survive a hit or two from a heroic trash mob.

The other problem this may lead to, which no one has really addressed yet, is nerfing of heroics. While this has not been discussed by Blizzard yet... I'd imagine it will soon after this is implemented. Let's say, for example, that a freshly minted 70 with ok to good non-70 instance gear wants to do Heroic Ramparts. They'll get a few steps into the instance and get wtfpwnd (yes... that is the technical term for it) pretty quickly. After a while, all these people will bitch to Blizzard that the instance is unnecessarily difficult. Enough whining and eventually the instance is nerfed so it's easier for people without great non-heroic gear.

I fully understand that this is a casual guild and that mostly everyone here isn't a "hardcore" raider. Many people will be happy to get into heroics without grinding on instances 5 or 6 times to get revered. I just think it defeats the meaning behind a *heroic* run.

Maybe I just take things like this silly game too seriously at times. Maybe it's just that I'm in the middle of grinding out the 6 runs of Shattered Halls I need for heroic and don't want to see that time spent all for nothing. :wall:

To summarize: meh...

The other problem this may lead to, which no one has really addressed yet, is nerfing of heroics. While this has not been discussed by Blizzard yet... I'd imagine it will soon after this is implemented. Let's say, for example, that a freshly minted 70 with ok to good non-70 instance gear wants to do Heroic Ramparts. They'll get a few steps into the instance and get wtfpwnd (yes... that is the technical term for it) pretty quickly. After a while, all these people will bitch to Blizzard that the instance is unnecessarily difficult. Enough whining and eventually the instance is nerfed so it's easier for people without great non-heroic gear.

To summarize: meh...

IMHO you hit the nail on the head. If this happens, how long will it be before they have to nerf the heroics? You know they will have to. I have never been in and have about 5 runs with everything to get my keys, so it will be a little, but i have heard without the gear and playtime you stand no chance in a heroic. It iwll lead to a huge bitch-fest!

If every noob with honored rep can get into a heroic, it will make finding a good PUG even tougher.

Technically, every noob who hits level 70 and has a thousand gold can get into Tempest Keep. Do people PUG it? No. I don't think this is a problem, and I think you're reaching for something to get het up about here. :) People know that Heroics have a time and expenditure commitment, and if they're not willing to make that commitment, they don't go. I don't expect flooding to ever be that big a deal, especially since I don't believe we see it with the unkeyed instances as it is.

After a while, all these people will bitch to Blizzard that the instance is unnecessarily difficult. Enough whining and eventually the instance is nerfed so it's easier for people without great non-heroic gear.

That's not really how it works. Developers play pieces of the game over and over and discuss the physics of how it all works and how they want it all to work. If they decide amongst themselves as a development team that something is needlessly difficult or needlessly easy, then they will change it. If whining on the forums is all it took to get something to change, every class would have one ability labeled 'instapwn' and that's it. XD

I fully understand that this is a casual guild and that mostly everyone here isn't a "hardcore" raider. Many people will be happy to get into heroics without grinding on instances 5 or 6 times to get revered. I just think it defeats the meaning behind a *heroic* run.

The 'heroic' term was supposed to reflect the difficulty inherent in the instances, not the rep grinding necessary to get there. It's still totally fuck hard in any heroic if you're unprepared for it; I don't see that changing.

I agree with Aro. If you're heroic pugging, you will get "armoried" by the group leader. But even if your gear stacks up, bad players will wipe a pug, heroic or not. In heroic, though, they'll wipe in the first room. You'll know pretty quickly whether your group has a chance at badges.

I'm with Aro on this one, if Blizzard wants the heroics to represent a certain amount of difficulty, simple whining won't make them change it.

If that were true, we'd still have a ten-man cap on the old 60-man instances, which they capped at five-man to make them HARDER, not easier. And lo, the screaming was great and so was the whining, and lo, it changed nothing. Five-man those instances became, and five-man they remained.

This will be easier for all of our alts. By then we will already know the instance like the back of our hand and not have to go do them another 6 times each.

It's still totally fuck hard in any heroic if you're unprepared for it; I don't see that changing.

I do truly hope this is the case. I know I don't expect to manage a heroic in the gear, or even the skill level, I'm at now.

Side Note - I was a newly minted 70 with the gold for a flying. And what did I do? I tried to PUG some of the TK instances. Let me tell ya... the story of those runs will be forever told as examples of EPIC FAIL.

Of course... it's doesn't help when you hear a squeaky voice on the in-game chat say, "sorry, my mommy says i have to go cut the lawn" right after the first boss on Bot. Grrrrrrrrr.

"sorry, my mommy says i have to go cut the lawn" right after the first boss on Bot. Grrrrrrrrr.

hahahah. That sucks. I had someone say my mom is being such a b****. I might not be able to finish this instance.

Lemme edit this. It was more harsh than it needed to be.

If every noob with honored rep can get into a heroic...

Let's say, for example, that a freshly minted 70 with ok to good non-70 instance gear wants to do Heroic Ramparts.

I take issue with you calling anyone at level 70 with honored rep with any faction a 'noob.' I think that's seriously the wrong term to be throwing at anybody. Okay, we all know some level 70 morons. We've seen them, we've pugged with them, we may even consider some of them our friends. But I'll echo Beam and Arolaide: gear and rep do not a good player make. I know plenty of level 70 morons who are rockin' the awesome raid gear and are exalted with lots of folks.

But they're level 70. They're not noobs. I mean, fer cryin' out loud.

That said...meh, rep. I'm not revered with anyone (except Netherwing), and have no keys to any heroics. I'll be healing Kara tonight, and my gear's predominately epic. I've got nearly +1350 to heal unbuffed as my priest and my paladin's not too shabby either. Not everyone likes rep grinding.

That said...meh, rep. I'm not revered with anyone (except Netherwing), and have no keys to any heroics. I'll be healing Kara tonight, and my gear's predominately epic. I've got nearly +1350 to heal unbuffed as my priest and my paladin's not too shabby either. Not everyone likes rep grinding.

Noob

Not that this is going to help Aery in any way shape or form unless the patch goes live soon, I still applaud the change. Put simply, I'm a single mom, I work, I volunteer, and I'm pregnant (which equals beyond tired, fat, and lazy LoL) who really doesn't have the time to run that many instances. In fact, I'm lucky to hit more than two instances a week anymore thanks to soccer and the fall festivities my school has been throwing (nice over time, not so nice hours LoL). I know lots of people are in the same boat so to speak, work has picked up, family life has picked up... so on and so forth. I know I'm not a crappy player (or at least I hope I'm not LoL), I just don't have the actual time to run a gazillion runs. Yes, a bunch of tweenage and teenage punks are going to be flooding into heroics, but a good deal are already in there because most of them have the time to do so anyway (unless mommy is being a bitch, and why oh why does everyone blame Mommy?!?). This just levels the playing field for those of us who don't always have the time to devote to the same instance over and over...and over and over and over. Or the poor ADD peeps..oh look, shiny!

I take issue with you calling anyone at level 70 with honored rep with any faction a 'noob.'

I can respect you taking issue with the use of "noob". I suppose I throw that term around more casually then some appreciate. I use noob more to convey a sense of newness, without the extreme derogatory nature others apply to it. This may not have been apparent in context.

To be candid, I would consider myself a noob 70. We can probably all agree (to one degree or another) that getting to 70 is only half the game. A whole new game, with different objectives, opens up after that. I've only been playing since last xmas. I have many alts in the high 30s to low 40s, but Raps is my first 70. I'm still learning what has to be done at 70 to progress in this game. And I'd probably be that person that would try a heroic completely under-geared just to try it.

I'll conclude with... it was not my intention to ruffle your feathers or imply that people who chose not to rep grind are noobs. Besides, looking at your list of toons, and having run an instance or two with you, you are anything but a noob.