I think we'll do the best we can and have fun doing it. If we fail, so be it but if somehow we do manage to get that square peg in that round hole, what a great day it'll be.

I had this whole big long thing I was about to post, but I think it's all been said, and well summed up by the Don.

I do appreciate Widge's post on the aspect of raiding but I think he's missing the mark a bit with regards to VS and our outlook on raiding. We're making our raid attempts just to do it. We're not looking to farm the instances, we just want to take on the challenge. If we fail night after night then fine. We know it's a game and we know we're not in a position to really take on the big bad raids but as long as we're having a good time then fuck it, let's do it.

There's no pressure on anyone to join us and anyone is welcome to say "no thanks. you guys have fun tonight". I just want everyone to know that.

/clap

I'm not getting my hopes up for a bunch of purple items for Agnes. I just want to try and see new things, is all. And spend some quality time with my very special gamer friends.

OK judging from the pms I received I believe that my comments are being taken out of context. Perhaps people did not see my preface or the reason I posted what I did.

First off, The Don asked for feedback and thoughts on raiding, I gave one from the perspective of a former raider. The only point I was making is, I have seen guilds fall apart over "The raid issue". What makes this guild special to me is the mood and spirit of the people involved. I just do not want to see it go south because I have personally seen guild after guild break apart when it gets time to raid.

I would also like to clarify the square peg round hole comment - I am referring to me being that proverbial square peg who left a core raid guild because I didn’t fit in their round hole and instead rolled a new char (Widget) and started over.

I in no way have any issue with Vs its members or its policies. I came here looking for a good time and enjoy the time I spend here. If I have offended anyone in my attempt to give some feedback I truly apologize. If you would like to talk to me about this or anything else, I will make myself available for Vent whenever asked.

Doghouse boy

I am, as Deme can tell you, very sensitive to the word 'can't.' That's pretty much all I'm saying. XD

Drink and be merry, all ye wise gentle.. people.. type... things.

I put off throwing my opinion in for a while but it now appears to be needed.

Personally I am against the idea of this guild raiding - AT THIS TIME and possibly forever.

1. Our characters are not designed for it. To make matters worse, THIS GAME was not designed as a raiding game. Raids were nothing more than a tacked-on afterthought by some fucktard employee Blizzard hired from EQ. You can see it in the class design and the piss-poor designs of the raids themselves.
As a result the only way they can make raids a challenge is to make the bosses SO difficult that only the best possible raid templates will stand a decent chance of defeating them. Does that mean we'd be wasting our time? No. It just means that we'll have a much more difficult time than other "proper" raid specs.

2. Our characters are not properly geared for it. How many people are still touting around shitty greens? /raises hand. As a result of the above the best way to hedge our chances is by having better gear than the raid was designed for. Sadly, the only way to get that gear is by running harder Raids than the one we intend to run. It's a stupid cycle.

3. We don't have the numbers for it. If EVERY level 60 shows up then we could field enough to run a 20 man instance. IF. We're lucky if we have enough people available to fill three parties for our normal instance runs never mind a raid run.

4. We're just now starting to take down the Baron with any regularity. We just started to run Dire Maul and most of the other 5-10 man runs. Hell we've only been to UBRS what? Twice now? As far as I'm concerned even THINKING about running raids is a bit premature at this point.

5. But most importantly, What's the fucking point? Do these instances provide any different content than what we find in our current 5-10 man stuff? Is MC, ZG, BWL and the others on par with Aerlinthe Island? the Olthoi Queen assault on Marae Lassal? The Chaos Eidolon? Hell I would be happy with something as SIMPLE as the Soulbound weapons quest from AC2.
ANYTHING other than the dull-as-shit "Fight-the-series-of-boss-encounters-until-you-make-it-to-the-really-Big-Bad" bullshit that encompasses the entirety of the WoW endgame. Will killing Onyxia advance the ongoing storyline? Oh wait, there isn't one.....



in a nutshell, for me WoW Raids suck donkey cock.
The whole concept of raiding in this game is the stupidest fucking thing I have ever seen.
It is nothing but a dumbass grind to keep the BNet kiddies paying the monthly fee.

Jakiera was designed to solo and run 5-10 man dungeons. Her "role-less" Role is something that she excels at. Her spec is damn near useless in a Raid situation as are about 90% of the rest of the Guild's. There's a reason why Raid Guilds require certain talent specs, because the encounters have been designed to be difficult even for the best possible build.

The ZG run was interesting, not what I would call fun though. If not for Sherica's hawt southern accent on Vent I would have been bored into a coma that night. Raiding is just not my cup of tea. There's no point to it. If it advanced a storyline or opened a series of cool quests then I'd be all over it, but it doesn't.

(um, UBRS is a raid)

UBRS is a 10-man instance.
Raids are 20+

I think we need to differentiate between 'this guild raiding' and 'me personally raiding.' Because I think the guild as a whole can do whatever the shit it wants. And also I, as a player, can do whatever the shit I want. Jak, I'm sorry you were bored. I had a ball and I would love to go again, because ZG was pretty, and fun to look at, and goddamn is Hakkar gorgeous even over a hill. You do not have to go. I do not have to go with the guild. It's amazing the way these things coincide. XD But I don't think just because you didn't have fun that means The Guild Is Doomed ZOMG Do Not Ever Raid Ever ZOMG ZOMG.

ETA: Gleja's right, dude. If you have to make it a raid group, it's a raid by definition.

When I click that "Convert to Raid" button, it's a raid. 6 people in LBRS? Raid.

The tactics we use in UBRS are the same as we tried to use in ZG. It's the same thing.

You're welcome to come or not come anywhere you want, obviously. You and I schedule events that cross all levels and styles of the game. So we can all be happy. yay. happy.

I definitely want to keep ubrs and zg in our rotation. I had a blast that night in zg. I even think we'll own snake man's ass the next time we face him.

First of all: Not offended by anyone, don't even worry about that.

Gabby Johnson is right! I am like Aro myself, I had a really good time in ZG and would love to go back. I do understand, however, that this is easy for me to say, since I am not still geared in greens, for the most part. This is where what the Don is saying comes in - if you don't want to raid, you absolutely should not go. If you were bored on the ZG run and didn't have fun, please do not feel obligated to go with us. If it means we don't have enough people we don't, and we'll wait until we do. We won't stop going on Baron runs or Skoolmance runs with the pantless if you don't want to come to ZG. Please do not go anywhere you don't want to go, that's not what we're intending.

If what you mean is that you don't think we can do it without all of us, and all of us don't want to raid, that's fine. Seriously, DO NOT feel obligated to go. It is NOT that important to me, and I don't think it's that important to anyone else, either. All we're saying is that if we have twenty people who are having fun, we might as well butt our heads against the unpossible, because if we scale that wall, OH what a great day, as the Don says, it will be.

I would love to see us be a casual guild that sometimes raid. Problem is, many guilds have tried it and failed. I am not being a doom sayer; I am not dismissing our chances of success. All I am saying is:

1) We are currently not in a state of readiness to raid.

2) We need some discussion on the topic before we plow ahead.

3) I am doing my damnedest to point out how this topic, like no other, can break a guild apart. Just look at the posts going on the topic now.

I am only trying, as best as I can to point some things out that have destroyed guilds I have been in the past. I agree with Ingomar and Arolaide in that we do not all have to raid. I think that Aro hit it on the head with a differention between "this guild raiding" and "me personally raiding". I gave a suggestion that maybe we talk to other like minded guilds at this state and see if they want to form a co-op raid agreement. If you find my opinions invalid then we can discuss them. Win me over to your point of view or give me a chance to explain where I am coming from.

I would love to see us be a casual guild that sometimes raid. Maybe I was wrong to post my opinion publicly and should have taken The Don on his offer to send him a PM. The only way I see us being a success is by talking about it first.

ME

I agree that the philosophy behind a guild's raiding will either make or break a guild. I just think that our current guild philosophy -- hey, let's go have some fun, who gives a shit about actually killing stuff -- is pretty successful *for me personally*. If you (that is a global you, not a Widget-specific or Jak-specific you) have to achieve certain goals before you can consider your time well spent, then no, that philosophy won't work for you; by the same token, 'all priests must be holy, all warriors must be prot, all druids must be resto, that way we can be sure to down Bosses A B and C' is a philosophy that doesn't work for me.

Agreeing with the grrls. If we go and have fun and make slow progress, then yay! If it sucks for people, we'll wait until we have enough people who want to go. I don't think something like that would "break a guild." No one here is all pissed off because they don't have enough epics, right? Because if half of us were, That would break the guild.

Okay, time to throw my 2 cents in! :)

and stating up front, I think this is a great thread, honestly. It's good to get all of these thoughts and feelings out in the open.

First off, I think we seriously need to define what it means to raid. We are a casual, fun, laid back guild. We will never, ever be a full out raiding guild. What it means to be in a raiding guild is that you have to deal with "mandatory" raids and events, DKP, all that shit we are not interested in.

What I *AM* interested in is seeing whatever I can of the game. I'm not in it to be some 1337 hardcore gamer, if that were the case I wouldn't be here. I suspect most people feel the same. We're in it to see whatever we can of the game, and to have fun and hang out with our friends. If we get nice gear, awesome! If not, who cares! Other than Pal! :)

What I imagine happening with VS, going forward, is that we will simply continue to do whatever we can do that we enjoy. THAT is the most important thing here - for people to have FUN.

Those people who want to try to hit high level instances like UBRS and ZG *SHOULD* try to do so! Don't let *ANYONE* tell you it can't be done. It will take a lot of work, it will take some organization, it will take some effort and time, but if that is what you want, then go for it! I know that's exactly what I will be doing because I WANT to hit those, no matter what anyone else wants to do!

By the same token, if you do NOT want to hit ZG or UBRS or whatever and you are simply not interested in it at this time, then don't do it! :) there's other things to do, and no one will ever think less of you for not wanting to go. Just don't sign up for it! :)

Two other things I would like to note here.

First, the issue of gear has been brought up, and it's a legitimate one. Bear in mind that we are and should be continuing to run 5 man instances as our primary focus. Not only are they fun, but we are getting much better at them, we have a fair number of new 60's in the guild who are really looking forward to it, and we will continue to get better gear as time goes on. We're not in any rush, it will happen as it happens, and as we do have better geared people, we will be able to expand upon our capabilities for anyone who wants to see the raid content.

Second, eventually, we *WILL* see all of this raid content - one way or the other. The expansion pack is expected to hit this fall. When that happens, and 70 is the new level cap, that will make a HUGE difference on ALL existing dungeons. There will of course be brand new 40 man level 70 dungeons in the expansion pack that we will in no way be able to do at that time. But so what! We WILL be able to hit MC, BWL, AQ40, Naxrammas, etc. Right now, the devs are estimating that post-expansion MC will require no more than 12-15 level 70 characters!

My last thoughts here are that basically everyone should just RELAX. As a guild, no one is in any way required or encouraged to do anything they don't want to do - that's one of the really beautiful things about this guild. If you want to do higher level content, then some of us will be doing so! If you don't want to, then don't worry about it, it is *ALL* good! :)

The one and only thing we cannot under ANY circumstances do is to come up with some reason why as a guild we should not *ALLOW* anyone to try raids. Otherwise, I think we're just fine.

I'm glad you posted Widget, because like you said, SOMEONE was eventually going to say the Emperor had no clothes, it's a discussion many guilds have had before us, and as we all know, there is no greater guild-killer than Molten Core. I think there are two main issues here, and I'll hit them both.

1.) Personal choice. A lot of what we're saying here is, "I think WE are ready to," or "I think WE can take down," or, "I think WE can raid," and it's true that isn't fair to our guild focus on playing how we want. We don't want to pressure people who don't feel they personally are ready to do something they don't want to do. I do think WE could take down Venoxis, but that's not what I get a vote on. If Widget wants to say, "I do not personally think Widget, as a character, has a realistic change at tanking Venoxis," then it's not fair to ask him to go back. If Jak was bored, it's not fair to ask HIM to go back. I don't want people to be afraid to say, "That was not my idea of fun, I don't want to go," because I am excited about it. I just want to make very clear that when I say "I think WE can take down Venoxis," I do not mean, "AND YOU SHOULD COME HELP DO IT EVEN IF YOU HATE IT." Feel free to say that perhaps WE can, but it is not your idea of fun. Players should even feel free to say, "I don't want to beat my head against five wipes in one night and have nothing to show for it." IT IS OKAY IF THIS IS NOT YOUR IDEA OF FUN. I have stopped playing console games because I found a boss fight unnecessarily hard and/or unentertaining. DO NOT spend your fun game time doing something you do not want to do.

2.) Thinking too far ahead. We really shouldn't even be arguing about "raiding." We are not ready to "raid." We MAY be ready, if everyone wants to do so, to down Venoxis, and we MAY be ready to ATTEMPT the second boss. If we only get the second boss down to 95% after five attempts, we can revisit THAT issue, and I think this conversation will be very different. I think we're looking at this whole big issue of "raiding," when it isn't what we're excited about at all. We all know, realistically, that the fact that we did well on Venoxis does not mean we will do well on other bosses. We are just excited that we did well on Venoxis. ALL we need to be worrying about right now is, "Hey, are you guys willing to join us for another attempt on Venoxis." (It is still okay if the answer is no, of course.)

So in summary:

1.) Let's stop saying 'we are ready to,' so much, because I think this makes a lot of people feel they are being spoken for without consent. Let's say, "I am ready to, who else is?" It's okay if the answer is 'Not I,' said the duck.

2.) Let's stop addressing this as if "raiding" means all instances over 10-man, when really, right now, all we're really excited about is Venoxis.

FOR INGOMAR PERSONALLY:

I am ready to try and down Venoxis, and I am ready to make an attempt on whatever the second boss is. If we totally, totally suck against him and I don't want to try again, I will be sure to let you know. Probably with many four letter words and slanders against that boss' mother, sister, and communicable diseases I hope said boss has the pleasure of contracting from Jamisia's mom (Hi Sky, Sorry Sky).

I do not care about loot whatsoever. I enjoyed our trip to ZG and wouldn't mind returning. However, a large part of this is BECAUSE we did so well against Venoxis. I definitely would have to re-assess boss by boss, because if we had only gotten Venoxis down to 98% five times in a row? I would not, and will not for future bosses, want to hit that again without an overhaul. How many times you personally must be eaten by a dragon before it stops being fun is up to you! I will let you know when I am tired of being eaten by any particular dragon.

(Confession: I am getting close to being tired of pulling the zombies in Jandice's room. I hate those pulls! I still enjoy going and fighting her, but if someone else could pull I LOVE YOU JAMISIA FOR DOING THAT FOR ME LAST TIME that would be radsauce.)

Naked MC Run! Wooo!!

Naked MC Run! Wooo!!


IN!

This guild is all about personal choice and fun. And never feel like you're shit for voicing your opinion, even if that opinion is not a popular one. I, for one, have caused so much damn thread drama to make this thread look fabulous in comparison. The raid issue comes down to 'if you want to go, and realize you're probably going to die a lot and have a huge repair bill and maybe not get shit for look, and that sounds fun to you, COME WITH US!!!'... if not, 'ok!! that's fine, too!!'. That's it, that's all. Kinda like that Baron run that The Don made me take my warrior on (yes MADE ME). We told everyone up front 'hey, buncha noobs in here and Dits has never tanked in any instance, EVER. We're going to die, but we hope to have fun and get some loot'. I still felt guilty because.. well.. we didn't finish and it felt like I had let people down and wasted their time, but that was PERSONAL. Nobody made me feel that way but myself. And I think that's how this raiding thing will end up. If it makes you feel like shit to not 'complete' something, or accomplish a goal, then you probably shouldn't go just yet. Simple. There are plenty of other things to do and plenty of other people to do it with. Fabulous!

I had fun fighting the boss, but I'm not all into that mandatory mods and tend to rebel against 'ok, do this in this very specific way or we'll all die horrific deaths' kind of thing. I understand the necessity of it and when I'm not in that mood, I try to just not go as I don't want to be the whiny bitch that ruins everyone's play. Once again, that's PERSONAL.

Aro hit the nail on the head. It's all just a personal choice. But it's sweet that the members of this great and wonderful guild are concerned that we're gonna get all icky and uber and start hatin' on people. That just shows me how much everyone means to each other.

This guild is all about personal choice and fun.

Etc, etc, etc.



Well said!

I am personally a bit divided on the issue. My lvl 60 is still somewhat new, but my gear is all blue. I personally would like to keep trying at ZG and maybe even AQ20, but I don't know that I have the ability just yet to really control my toon perfectly and there is definite pressure when any screw-up or slow reaction affects 19 other people.

There are exceptions to the rule, but I am also finding that even with the UBRS raids (pug) there are more uber raiding asshats then in the smaller instances. I would love to have better gear, but it just isn't worth it for me playing with these types of people. I had a particularly bad experience the other night and I'm not sure how many pugs I may do after that unless I know the majority of the toons.

I did enjoy the ZG and UBRS raids, but at the same time they didn't have the same feel as the instance runs. In some ways they were challenging, but in other ways they just weren't as fun. I really really hate the ready button and the sound it makes. The button in itself is a good idea, but it just seems things get way too serious.

Yes, I would like to have the cake and eat it too. Is that possible?