Um...dick?

Horde aren't actually evil, just not as civilized (except for BEs who are greedy bastards). And the Alliance are very political (and if they weren't, I'd be playing a Panderan the second I get the expansion instead of some alien)

I just figured the undead were evil because they are trying to spread a plague so EVERYONE is undead and ... I mean, I understand that perfectly, but I'm evil myself so take that as you will.

Don't let these spin doctors mislead you, Lux. The Forsaken are evil, despite their tragicke gawthe histoire. It's true they got pretty hardcore fucked over and they have a right to be bitter, but they still want to kill everyone. The reasoning behind it doesn't matter -- they're evil, and IMO, the entire Horde is evil by association. I still like my undead priest, but let's be real people.

YEAH!

Maybe they are space shaman!


There's a Drenaiiii waiting in the sky, he'd like to come and gank us but he think's he'd blow out minds

</bad Bowie impression>

The forsaken and the undead, that the horde plays, are different things!

Maybe some influence here and there, still bound by some of Arthas' asshattery, they are trying to get out of it and stop the scourge. That is why Sylvanas is such a bitch, another unwilling person turned into scourge, but manged to maintain their wits.

Yes, they hate the Scourge, but they hate everyone ELSE too. Have you ever done the Forsaken quests? =p They all revolve around creating a new plague (this is the purpose of the Royal Apothecary Society), designed not only to attack the Scourge but also every other thing out there--which is why they are testing it on the humans/dwarves/etc that they capture and also LITTLE INNOCENT DOGS.

Also note the extensive horrible experiments and tests they perform on people in the Undercity, including that weird set up with the female tauren who looks like she's been poisoned.

YES. Let's not forget the DOGS. I have done a trillion undead quests and Deme is smart and Torrin is WEIRD.

I might make a BBG (Big blue guy, aka Draenei) shaman just because I'm sure Blizz is going to fuck up the BC launch and the outland server will crash when every 60 on the server rushes the Dark Portal.

Both Torrin and Deme are partially correct. The Forsaken are controlled by some very cunning, bitter, vicious creatures. We haven't been informed as to what their agenda is, yet... although it's pretty obvious from the players' perspective that it's not good for anyone with a heartbeat. Maybe Sylvanas is hoping that by devising a plague to destroy all living beings, she can get back in the Lich King's good graces and be allowed to keep her free will. Maybe she's hoping that the more undead she raises, the fewer he can raise, therefore increasing her chances of winning the battle of attrition.... who knows. I'm just speculating there. Still, condemning the entire group because of what their leaders are doing under the table is a bit, shall we say, shortsighted. That's like judging all of America based on its President.

Yet, the entire Horde is not "EVIL!!!!" simply because they gave these creatures a safe haven, an opportunity to redeem themselves before they were wiped out by both the Scourge and Alliance. The parallels between the origins of the Forsaken and the Orcs on Azeroth are rather obvious, and the Orcs, in all honor, could not deny the Forsaken the same chance to choose their own path. Plus, it's not as if the Horde welcomed them with open arms... they ARE the race on the Horde side that starts out at the butt end of Neutral with the three other allied factions. It's not just a game mechanic that makes up for them getting Cannibalize, Will of the Forsaken and Underwater Breathing as racial abilities (although it's quite convenient).

I don't know why people keep working so hard to get this game in B&W, it's much more attractive in color. LOL!

Err, not really. Obviously the race themselves are generally in favor of the agenda because, again, the player, ie, the member of the Forsaken race, is the one happily bringing poisons to test subjects etc.

Also Sylvanas HATES the Lich King, the lore makes this abundantly clear. I'm not at all stating the Horde is evil just because Sylvanas has questionable aims, they are evil because the others KNOW their aims are questionable, the aims are patently shared by MOST of the population (given the activities we are shown), and they do not CARE. That's simply how it is /shrug

Quite honestly - there is a distinction between the players/WoW and the lore/Warcraft.&#160; Players do not HAVE to do the quests for the Forsaken, yet they do, because it will gain them XP and goodies (game-mechanic-oriented, NOT lore-oriented).&#160; The game has many flaws in this regard.&#160; If the game was thoroughly lore-oriented then Horde players would be able to learn Common and Alliance players would be able to learn Orcish (there are examples of this in the lore) and you would be able to choose to surrender and not fight.&#160; Right now, one can do that... but the game does not support it.

bah... don't have time to respond because I have to get out the door. Think what you like. Heh.

dorks. ;D

Since I have max level characters on both sides, I have dorkily devoted a lot of time weighing which side I would ultimately want to win in the End, and I always have to come down for the Alliance.

Yes, of course I know that about the quests, you don't have to do them, etc, that isn't the point. The point is Blizzard, by including them as part of the overall Forsaken storyline, is clearly defining the personality of this race, and there is no way, to my mind, to characterize it outside of ultimately evil. Or, if you find that word limiting, not on the side of ultimate good. For all the Alliance's political machinations, and for their small undesirable factions (like Admiral Proudmoore's troops), they are -- in the designer's eyes and in my eyes -- more for the ultimate good of Azeroth than the Horde. The Horde are primarily outcasts out for themselves, trying to eke out an existence, and for the trolls, orcs, and taurens, that's fine. But since the Forsaken obviously and quite clearly in every respect want revenge on ALL things animated (not just the Scourge), they are not fine. End of story~ <3

(this is all said with the fact that I also concluded that ultimately Thrall will realize his mistake in allowing the Forsaken to join them and also he and Jaina will have many half-orc babies)

Killian - Hey, I resemble that remark.&#160; :P

Deme -
I could hop on board the notion of calling the Forsaken "evil", if we are to judge the entire group by its leadership sects (which, since they ARE undead, is a somewhat reasonable assumption).&#160; Yet, on the idea of condemning the rest of the Horde as "evil" because of this, we'll just have to agree to disagree.&#160; If, indeed, that is what we are doing.&#160; It's starting to seem more like a disagreement in term definition at this point.&#160; :)


(this is all said with the fact that I also concluded that ultimately Thrall will realize his mistake in allowing the Forsaken to join them and also he and Jaina will have many half-orc babies)


***WANDERING OFF INTO THE WEEDS OF PURE SPECULATION***
(which should be a hint that I would also enjoy something like this to shake up the status quo)
So if #1 were to happen, what happens to the players who have Forsaken characters? If #2 happens, do we start getting Faction vs. Faction PvP (because the lines between Horde/Alliance have been crossed and there are people on both sides who are going to be riled about it)?&#160; Heh... it will probably never happen though.&#160; I'd enjoy the game a lot more with more options, I think, but then I'm probably not what they'd consider their "target audience".&#160; /sniffle
***/SPECULATION OFF***

Wow, I helped hijack a thread.&#160; D'oh!&#160; My work here is done.&#160;&#160; ;D

I've never played any of the other Warcraft games - but I blame the Night Elves.lol

How hated are the Belf Pally's gonna be by the Horde I wonder...I may roll one & find out. Can anyone have an anti-spit enchant?