I dunno, I think the whole casual vs raider thing is silly =P But maybe that's because I've seen both sides and am thus able to see the pros/cons of both situations. The only difference, when you get right down to it, is that raiders have made the choice to incorporate WoW into their lives in a greater respect than non raiders. In every other way they are much like casuals. They often have jobs, families, and a myriad of other obligations. Admittedly, some don't, some just play WoW all damn day. But some people who aren't raiders and don't want to be just play WoW all damn day as well, so /shrug

As for this, again, I do not expect anyone to care. It's not my intent FOR you to care. It's just my intent to respond with my feelings on the subject, which, since I've raided extensively for the past year, naturally incorporates a raider's perspective.

By the way, although I can't support this at all with any figures, I think part of KT's point is that Blizzard is driven by the people who play the game hardcore. Remember that WoW is basically the largest MMO ever, in that it has the playerbase of MMOs like EQ and so on AND THEN SOME by a HUGE margin. But the thing is that a lot of people who played EQ and games like it WERE hardcore. Admittedly I've never played any MMO but WoW, but many WoW players are EQ expats and they discuss it all the time. My impression is that WoW is designed far more with the casual player in mind than any other MMO out there. But the people who play the most -- and therefore are the most vocal about their wants and needs and etc -- are the hardcore folks. They're the bread and butter of the MMO industry. Casual players, in terms of business, are like the delicious frosting ;x

So because they have made the choice to incorporate WoW more fully into their lives, they get the right to see 100% more of the endgame content? Sorry, no. That's not a right. It appears that the designers believe that the way it's working now is broken, and that's why they're fixing it.

I agree that raiders fear change, and it has worked for them for so long and now they have to figure out ways to adapt. This is entirely correct. I disagree that allowing players to adapt means the game is horrible and broken and now it sucks. But hey, maybe they'll put their money where their mouths are and quit, and the BG queues won't suck so bad.

All I really want is for people to see both sides in this situation, mainly because it never should have come down to a raider versus casual environment. I may sound like a broken record, but Blizz made it like that. By only having one path of progression that was not feasible to all players they made a WOW caste system. At the top where the people doing the only new content, then there was everyone else. Blizz gave the top castes an epic quest to open the gates of AQ, while the untouchable got to turn in bandages and flowers. Did raiders ask to be Blizz’s golden children? No, they followed the path of progression, the only path. Did raiders exclude you from Nax? No, by game design Blizz did. Did most people raid simply to feel better than the masses? No, it was the only avenue of progression in the game at the time. If we had 40 people and decided to do MC, would it be to feel better than others? While it may seem different on the WOW forum, the majority of players could care less about people they don’t know. The guy in Tier 3 could give a rat’s ass about my gear, he’s busy with his own thing. You may come across someone who does value things like that, but do you honestly care about such a person’s opinion? The only thing that forced Blizz to change that model was the fact the majority of players couldn't or refused to raid, and they feared losing players and money. The real question is why it went on for so long.

That is an excellent question. And it's true that the loudest players are the uber-raiding minority -- IE, going back again, the troll who said VS was lame because we weren't raiding Naxx or BWL or whatever. That's the attitude that the loud minority perpetrates, and I'm excited at the idea that it might go away --or at least, get quieter.

That will never bother me Aro. I know it as a fact the players in this guild far outshine any others I have played with. Everyone here ranges from darn good to some of the best at their class that I've ever seen. This guild has done 5 man combinations that people in the epics would have trouble with. The only thing holding us back are numbers, and that will soon not be an obstacle. I just hope we have enough to do MC before the expansion. We'll let you be the one to post we stopped after killing Garr on our first run simply because we didn't have the resist gear if it would make you feel better.

No, see, I'm not looking for pettings and validation here; I'm looking to move out of an environment where that attitude is encouraged, because it's a sad fact of life when people are rewarded for being assholes. I like people to be nice. That's all. And while there will still be fifteen year-old boys waving their virtual dicks around, it's no longer true that they're the only ones who can see content, and they no longer have the ability to use that to swell their egos. Everyone gets the chance to see the same game now. That makes me happy. That's all I'm saying. <3

Umm, awesome dps? Brotha gots to try the sweet talk!

My own drinking buddies totally rag on VS because we are not going to high-lvl raids and can't FATHOM that our guild might just be awesome anyways and I'd rather be in this one doing 20mans and lower than in theirs, staying up far too late and maybe, POSSIBLY getting a purple. The subject has become so sore with me that I have to force them to change it when it comes up and it ALWAYS comes up. They do not have the rational attitude that KT points to. So. If we can do most of the same shit they can do and that will make them shut the fuck up about it, I'm all for it. And this way, we don't have to make an alliance with some shitty guild full of whiny dramapigs and have to give them VS ALLIANCE FORUM ACCESS and anything else craptastic that would come with it.

Heh, what ever makes you happy. I've seen people who made this game their life, their obsession. It made me want to play less. I'm begining to catch up on my Bergman, hopefully back to weightlifting when my shoulder heals, back to the range so I don't shoot myself if I have to draw in public. If it has that much of an emmotional effect you may need to step back a little. You can make it a competition, but I hope you don't. Seriously, try not to give a fuck.

No offense, but given the stories I've heard about that guild I understand why the attitude against raiders has developed here. I'm familiar with every raiding guild on Zul'jin and very few of them behave the way you guys have described. Honestly, the guild I'm in is the worst, and it's only a couple of them who are like that. Most of them aren't, really really. Shrug :x

At this point, I honestly think this whole discussion is a moot point. We all agree that it's Blizzard who made the game what it was, and who engineered it in such a way that it seperated raiders and non-raiders. And now they're taking some steps to address that. Those steps are going to cause problems for hardcore raiding guilds, of that there is NO doubt at all, and it will be difficult for some of them to adjust. But the bottom line is, this is DAMN good news for this guild. Raider guilds that DO make the adjustment will still be ahead of the curve - they'll be successfully doing and completing all the newer instances long before we'll be able to. They'll still have the better loot, and they'll still get to brag about being the first to down such and such boss, whooo. But the most important thing of all is that WE WILL have a shot at TRYING those new instances, all of them, without the extreme difficulty of putting 40 casual people all together. We'll have to make adjustments ourselves, but we'll have our shot, and that is all that counts here.

Game, Set, Match!

Except for the part where I wasn't trying to win anything in the first place ;P

I just want to get the last word in.

Sorry canyon, I'm getting a word in after you.


Fart.


That's my word!

Pudding.

poopsock

so that means guilds like ours will be coveted.


Aren't we already? :)

so that means guilds like ours will be coveted.


Aren't we already? :)


We totally are for our cute gnomes! No one has a better selection of gnomes for punting! I mean... for DPS!

Torrin's icon is totally the best icon I have seen in the history of icons. Ever. And I bet there are millions of camgirls pissed off they didn't think of it first.

I'm going to tape WoW boxes to my privates and become a gamernerd icon!!!!

Murloc pasties!

gubernaculum