Sorry Lyr, I'm hijacking your quote from another thread.

Bringing someone we're iffy about in for a trial period is fraught with peril. With the exception of XXXXXX, it's really hard for people to say, "Hey, time for you to go" after somebody's already here.

I've wondered about the need for the trial period, honestly. For as long as I've been a member, we've never (that I'm aware of) not promoted someone at the end of their trial period. We have had a few people disappear during this period, but that's not really all that different than someone just disappearing after becoming a member.

After bouncing this off someone else, it was pointed out that what the trial period does is prevent someone from applying then wiping out our guild vault. So, I have a suggestion: let's cancel the trial period for people who have been vouched for by members. If they've been vouched for, it's very unlikely that they'll steal from the vault. It also affords them an advantage for knowing someone in the guild. If noone knows you, you get a probie period while we determine if you're gonna steal from us. Otherwise, if your app is accepted, welcome to the guild!

I say keep it. Even though I only know of one or two people who have been asked to leave during the trial period or have not been promoted, that's not the only purpose the trial period serves. Let's take, for example, somebody who was reasonably articulate on the app but then gets into guild chat and says "R U guys go 2 slabs?" A trial period provides a little cushioning for an officer to say, "Hey, just so you know, many of our members are big fans of whole words in /guild." Giving that kind of feedback during a trial period comes off in a totally different way than giving it to a full-fledged member.

The trial also encourages existing guildies to make an extra effort to talk to or group with the new person, or at least to pay attention to whatever they're saying in /guild, in order to have some feedback to give. So it's a plus for the new folks, too -- they, I hope, get a little more interaction during the trial than they might otherwise, especially with lots of members taking pre-expansion breaks right now.

Hmm, that's a good point.

I can see merits in both options. Right now, we're struggling some because we want to give a benefit to friends and family of current VSers, and there seems to be no appreciable way to do that other than to be more lenient on applications (i.e, to make it easier for someone to get in if a current VSer vouches for them). This, however, leads to the debate about whether we should be more or less lenient on friends and family in apps, since friends have the advantage of knowing someone 'inside' who can tell them what we look for in apps, and thus being held to a higher standard.

If we had a different benefit for friends and family applicants, such as immediate membership after approval, we'd be able to assess friends' applications as carefully as we need to, but once someone good does get in, we welcome them completely.

I do think the downside of this proposal is that the trial period isn't just for us. Sure, it's for us to get to know the new person, but it's also for them to get to know us...and we can be a scary bunch, especially when we take off our pants and get dirrrrty. So I dunno.

I like the trial period. For all the reasons stated above.

As for applicants... I've been thinking about this a bit.

In my opinion, there are a two types of applications that we give thumbs up to:

1. The application that cause us to pee our pants and have multiple orgasms - they get in on their own merit because they seem super-cool and will likely be a great source of entertainment for us. Or so we would hope. :)

2. The application that was "meh" or "harmless" but the applicant was vouched for by current VSers - I would say it's safe to let these guys through since they were vouched for, and even though they didn't make us blow our load, we also know they are not going to piss us off or cause us drama. Or so we would hope. :)

That's my 2 cents.

I like the trial period. For all the reasons stated above.

As for applicants... I've been thinking about this a bit.

In my opinion, there are a two types of applications that we give thumbs up to:

1. The application that cause us to pee our pants and have multiple orgasms - they get in on their own merit because they seem super-cool and will likely be a great source of entertainment for us. Or so we would hope. :)

2. The application that was "meh" or "harmless" but the applicant was vouched for by current VSers - I would say it's safe to let these guys through since they were vouched for, and even though they didn't make us blow our load, we also know they are not going to piss us off or cause us drama. Or so we would hope. :)

That's my 2 cents.

I agree 100% with that.

2. The application that was "meh" or "harmless" but the applicant was vouched for by current VSers - I would say it's safe to let these guys through since they were vouched for, and even though they didn't make us blow our load, we also know they are not going to piss us off or cause us drama. Or so we would hope. :)


I guess this is the crux of where I differ with most people. I don't give a thumbs up on these. I can't, for the life of me, see why "meh" is acceptable for VS. I don't look at a single one of my guildmates and think, "meh." My guild is not "meh." The people with whom I've made friends, and with whom I laugh and play and party and spend my weekends? They are not "meh." I don't see "meh" as good enough.

Especially when we give people multiple opportunities to show us more about themselves.

"Meh" is not who we are.

"Harmless" is not who we are.

I think it's awesome that we're so much fun that people want to bring their friends to join us. That says a whole lot about us. Do any of us, seriously, view their friends as "meh"? Would any one of us want one of our friends to be introduced to the guild and have us bring him or her in because that person is "meh"? Personally, hell no. I would want to know that my friends got in because they are awesome and we let in awesome people who hang out and be awesome with us.

I want people to know we're hard to get into because we care about who gets in. That way, when someone does get in, that person knows it's because he was awesome, and will be hanging out with awesome people. Not because he was just "meh."

I don't look at a single one of my guildmates and think, "meh." My guild is not "meh." The people with whom I've made friends, and with whom I laugh and play and party and spend my weekends? They are not "meh." I don't see "meh" as good enough..

Ever gone back and looked at the apps of your guildmates/friends and seen how many you might never have gotten to know if your recommendations had been the deciding vote? Just something to think about.....

David Hasselhoff

Ever gone back and looked at the apps of your guildmates/friends and seen how many you might never have gotten to know if your recommendations had been the deciding vote? Just something to think about.....

I've looked back at apps I either raised objections to or held my tongue about after finding myself vastly relieved that people had decided to leave the guild ... and wished I'd said something in the app process or expressed myself more strongly. The one I referenced in my original post is a prime example.

This is not at all to suggest that anyone you've vouched for falls into that category. It is to say that we've been very clear that we are very picky about who we let in, and one of the reasons I am in this guild is because we are so picky. One of the reasons I applied and took a lot of time on my application is because I wanted to be in a guild that was stringent in who it let in and had high standards, not in terms of DPS or lewts, but in terms of personality. I'm in agreement with Stranger that our guild is supposed to be made of awesome, so I'm going to keep looking for awesome in apps.

So, if someone is not considered awesome, do they not stay? Cause I'm for damn sure people in this guild would consider others not awesome at all. What happens when they're awesome in their app, then they never come around again? But that person who either didn't put as much effort or wasn't familiar with any kind of application process for guilds (cause honestly, other than applying for jobs, applying for a guild isn't something you learn in High School) sticks around and is around to help you score that phat piece of lewt or make you laugh and snort whatever liquor out of your nose cause they're knock-down funny when they're drunk.

That's the reason for the trial period. To truly test whether or not they're asshat material. Believe me, an app doesn't ever fully tell you whether a person is an ass or not. Nor does it truly reveal the awesomeness of someone. Some people are not articulate like the rest of us blessed key-pressers. Some people are shy and are nice and maybe, just maybe, don't want to share a whole lot about themselves to total strangers. Some people may not know who they are or what the answer to life is or what their favorite Ben Affleck movie is. Maybe they were in a guild with their significant other and that person died and that's the reason they left the guild they were in but they don't want to share that with everyone here cause it's none of our business. Putting effort is one thing. Expecting someone to give you their life story in applying to a guild is something totally different.

I don't think I was condoning letting "meh" people in -- I was just saying that if someone's app is "meh" but their friends tell us that they are actually really cool then we should trust the friend's opinion and give the applicant a shot.

But I also think we're gonna talk in circles here. All your concerns have been duly noted and we'll keep thinking of ways to tweak our application process.

I, for one, am glad that the app process wasn't as strict for family members. Or perhaps we just weren't as strict when I joined. I had no clue about how critical the app was, as Raeb kept pushing me to submit, but failed to mention that small item. I look back on my app now and think that had I not been Raebs father, I might not have made the cut....

SM

PS, I'm really missing you guys!

Affirmative Action is great! :)