and the discussion I had last night regarding Alts and the needs of the guild (and after having been bullied by Amanda! :eek:)

I have paid to port my paladin over to Eitrigg. You will have to forgive me his equipment. He was the first character I played up into the high 50's and I didn't know what I was doing at all.

Woo!

Is there a shortage of pallies? If so, what do we need? I have a 70 pally that would not take long at all if there is a need for him. Lemme know.

My understanding is that there was a shortage of good tanks, and while I may not be a GOOD tank, at least I am a tank. Also she said we could use the extra res in raids.

That or she just hates hunters, because that was option B.

I will personally strangle the next person that mentions a tank shortage. (Sorry Styg, you just tripped over one of my "issues")

Folks, we don't have a tank shortage. Off the top of my head (no offense to anyone I miss):
myself
Ferrous
Kae
Len
X
Shadian's warrior
Sugarmommy
Dalwin (respecs from time to time)
Beefy's warrior
Khros' warrior

That's ten right there, with more just a respec away (hey Jaannaa :) )

The reason for my frustration is people need to remember that there's room for two or three tanks and two or three healers in a raid. DPS fill the rest of the slots. Bringing four tanks to a (10 man) raid will kill the raid -- the same with four healers. This means, in every raid, there's limited room for tanks and healers. If there's more tanks and healers, there's more competition for those limited slots. We also end up rolling against alts on gear (I would probably cry if I saw my T7 gear go to alts because the RNG screwed me).

That said, Styg, please play what you want, play what you enjoy, play what you have fun with. But we do not have a tank shortage.

I was just repeating what I was told.

For what it's worth, I would never let my alt take away from someone's main. Doesn't seem right.

As far as what I enjoy, well ultimately I am sure I will port my hunter as well once my DK and Pal are at 80, I could have ported the hunter or the pal just didn't matter to me that much. Maybe I will even start up a little Shaman and level one of those again. Trust me, if I didn't enjoy it I wouldn't be paying money to move it!

Once they get on with this dual spec/equipment thing it will be a moot point anyhow since everyone will pretty much have both roles easily available.

Understood. Like I said, my post wasn't targeted at you, more that it was a chance to address the guild as a whole.

Personally, I think we need more hunters (and I'm working on leveling one).

Two thoughts on this.

1. On paper we do not have a tank shortage, as Beam's list makes clear. But one of the things to remember is that alot of the tanks have or our levelling up DPS characters. Vesputin and I are working on our DK and Mage respectively right now, and when we get to 80, we're going to want to raid, so other tanks will have to take our place. But in my opinion, this is going to be a completely moot point soon, because...

2. As Styg points out, the next patch introduces dual specs, which I think is going to completely change how we look at raiding. Every Warrior, Death Knight, Paladin, and Druid can have a tanking spec if they want to, even if they're normally DPS or healers. Every hybrid class can have a healing spec on top of their DPS spec. Hell, Frenial can have a Frost spec specifically for kiting zombies during Gluth, and go right back to his other spec afterwards.

The combinations are endless. I don't think we'll ever have an issue with 'not having the right group makeup' ever again after 3.1, so the idea of having any sort of class shortage will go right out the window anyway.

Frost spec.

Pshaw.

As if.

Beam's right! We clearly need more tanks!

I think we need more hunters. ;)

I just have a agree with Fren, being a Mage is about burning things up.

Clearly you've been smokin' -somethin'- if you think that fire is the way to go. Frost is merely where it's at. As we all know, the most badass mage ever is a frost mage.


... That mage is me, by the way. *Shakes fist at Ag*

I'm telling you right now. What we need is mechanized infantry.

Yeah, I'm kinda with Beam on the OH GOD WE DO NOT NEED MORE TANKS page. Because that is the same page with the OH GOD WE DO NOT NEED MORE HEALERS, and it's the page I sit on when I watch raids form where people go 'Okay, we need more DPS for this heroic! Already have a tank and a healer!' and I'm like, well, I can mad holy dps! I WILL SMITE YOU, SEE IF I DON'T!

Dual spec is right there on the horizon, and that's awesome, but it's not here yet. And one thing we haven't really considered is that once it's here, it's going to open up a whole new kettle of DRAHMUHZ. Because once we can dual spec, how do we handle loot rolls anymore? What happens if awesome tanking plate drops, and every warrior and death knight and paladin in the guild is dual-specced for tanking and dps? How do we say, "Okay, roll for that if tanking is your primary spec" when there's no such thing as "primary" and "off-spec" anymore, and people change from one to the other with the click of a button?

I'm just sayin'.

I think we all will still have our "primary" and "off-spec" with dual specs, though.

Homreker is Heal spec, that will always be her primary spec. So, if something drops that would be dps gear, then I would consider it as off spec even if that means I can switch to my off-spec at a moments notice.

I also think that for the most part we'll be better off for dps when the dual specs come into play. We won't have a tanking, healing or dps shortage when a healer or tank can switch to dps for a heroic, or a raid, or even a single encounter.

And, all that said... in this guild we generally have more problems with people actually fighting over who won't take the item than who will...
I can't count the number of runs where the "no, you take it." "no give it to him" arguments rise...

(Although Homreker may walk around in shadow form looking all mysterious and telling random whispers that she is shadow and can't heal...)

Hahaha.

Yeah, I mean, I would always consider healing to be my primary spec. But other people don't play the same way you or I do, and somebody else might consider himself to be primary tanking for raids but primary dps for heroics / everyday play.

So how do we deal with situations like that? Tell people their primary is whatever role they're filling at the time? Because that would lead to its own problems -- I know I would be hesitant to show up on a raid as shadow and fill a needed DPS slot if I knew I wouldn't be allowed to roll on a heal-spec item that dropped. Do we have a chart where people sign up and list their primary specs? How much more frustrating is it going to be when we start factoring people's alts into the situation, and somebody's main loses a major upgrade to somebody's dual-specced alt?

You're absolutely right in that this is not a guild of loot whores and greedy whiners, and that our arguments tend to be more along the lines of "No, I don't really need that, you take it!" "No, you take it!". Which is awesome. But these questions are going to come up, and they're going to lead to frustration, just as it led to frustration when mains started losing upgrades to people's alts back in Outland. It's something we should probably give some thought to before there are problems rather than after.

You want to worry about this? Really? I mean, really?

When we were rolling in cash and clearing Kara every week, we were in basically the exact same situation. I switched between Shadow & Holy a few times a week. I actually had two sets of interface folders, so that I could swap out my UI betwen a healer & a DPS. For all intents & purposes, I was dual specing. And I wasn't the only one.

Well, ok, I was probably the only one with two Interface folders. That was a bit weird.

Anyway.

Drama generated during this time? 0. It just wasn't a deal. We handled loot the same way we always did & everyone was fine.

I think it's even less of a deal this time, since the difference (at least for me) between DPS gear and Healing gear is usually one stat. In a lot of cases, I'm already rolling against mages for gear.

So this idea that I'm suddenly going to start rolling for gear that I'd never roll for if dual speccing didn't exist just doesn't hold a lot of water for me, I guess.

Hmm. That probably came out grumpier than I intended.

Basically, I believe that this will be briefly confusing & then settle into the familiar routine.

Except for Stranger, who is an assface. And can't heal. Also, he smells bad.

So there!

I'm walking around with a few pieces of "healing" gear simply because mp5 and spirit was lookin' gooooood to me when I first started doing heroics and Naxx.

We'll be talking about future spec gear dramz amongst ourselves and figure out a good system, if we even need one.

I think Glyphs will be a major factor in how people play as well, unless you get duel glyphs as well. If you have glyphs for tanking or healing, then that is your choice for primary spec. IMHO.

When you change specs, one button changes your talents, your glyphs and your button bars. So yes, you get two sets of glyphs.

Except for Stranger, who is an assface. And can't heal. Also, he smells bad.

You're just jealous because I beat your lazy ass to 80. While I was in the middle of exams. Which means you SUCK.

And I cultivate that aroma. It's part of my unique appeal.

Also, I think everyone should panic and freak out just because I tell them to. Dammit. OBEY! OBEYYYYYYY!!!!!

I think it's even less of a deal this time, since the difference (at least for me) between DPS gear and Healing gear is usually one stat. In a lot of cases, I'm already rolling against mages for gear.

So this idea that I'm suddenly going to start rolling for gear that I'd never roll for if dual speccing didn't exist just doesn't hold a lot of water for me, I guess.

I don't think this will apply too much to us priestly types. I think the only different stat that we will be particularly interested in is hit rating.

But I think it will be more of a difference for paladins, druids, and shaman... and maybe warriors. But again, we don't tend to argue much anyway, so I think we will be fine...