I so often see people critisizing others who want to use a particular piece of gear that is not considered "theirs". I get rather frustrated by this and would like someone to tell me why it is considered "wrong" for instance should a hunter want to equip two really nice one-handed swords.

I mean the developers of the game gave a hunter the ability to dual-wield for a reason...right? They may not melee like a rogue, but the stats on a sword (or axe or fist weapon) when combined with an equally good sword (or axe...) might combine to equal a much higher benefit to the hunter than, let's say...a polearm. However, when someone like me expresses the desire to use this dual wielding talent we are told in no uncertain terms that as a hunter we are not allowed to do that...or at least we shouldn't if we want to be the best that we can be. I look at the numbers and I can't understand how two weapons with +30 to Agility could be worse than one polearm that gives +45.

I am only using this as an example (although I would prefer to dual wield) because it is personal, but I see this throughout the game. Too often I hear someone being ridiculed because they say that they would like something (usually a weapon) that supposedly "belongs" to a different class.

Soo if you have an explanation for my specific example, or a reaction to the broader issue, please, I would like to hear it.

Thanks.

Mish

Mostly it's about competition for gear. Yes, hunters can equip fist weapons, swords and daggers, but they never actually HIT anything with them. They gain no benefit from the physical damage properties of the weapons, whereas shamans and rogues do. The same sort of thing goes for two handed weapons and warriors / death knights / paladins. If you're rolling against a rogue for a sword, what may be a good upgrade for you (assuming you have a companion weapon to begin with) is more likely a huge upgrade for them. On the other hand, the competition for polearms is pretty much limited to hunters and... hunters. (OK, and feral DPS druids, now.) What's a huge upgrade for you is probably of limited use to anyone else.

Let's assume then that you're not competing against a rogue for a dagger or a shaman for a fist weapon. In that case, maybe two fist weapons are better than your current weapon. But chances are that if you're finding two fist weapons which are better than your best two-hander then there's a two hander available to you off a boss in the content you're seeing that's even better. This is a question of the way the stats for the item are allocated. One handers will tend to have their stats allocated to physical damage or speed or hit - only the latter is of use to hunters, and even then only moderately. Your example only compares agility on the weapons, and while hunters do value agility, it shouldn't be the only thing you compare. If the only stats on the fist weapons are 30 agility and, say, 50 attack power, but your polearm has 45 agility, 150 attack power and 30 crit, the polearm is still better for you.

Finally, if for some reason you do end up having to melee, you will never hit a damn thing with two one-handers. Dual-wielding inherently reduces your chance to hit. Other classes that dual-wield have ways of offsetting this, 'cause they melee and they have to to survive. Hunters don't.

Wow, ok, I never heard it put that way (I usually just get called a noob) but it does make sense.

One thing I don't get is "Dual-wielding inherently reduces your chance to hit"...could you elaborate a bit on why? I strike twice on each move and the weapon speed means that I strike more often as well...wouldn't this mean I hit more too? Assuming I am meleeing for some reason that is (like pvp) and that my hit rating is high enough?

It's a game mechanic. When you're using a single melee weapon (one handed or two), your chance to miss with that weapon is 9%. When you're using two, each weapon has a 28% chance to miss (for white damage). (Special moves can usually only be done with the main hand weapon, and so stay at 9%.) I think all classes also suffer a reduction in base damage for offhand weapons when dual wielding, though I'm not sure by how much. Finally, weapon speed doesn't make a difference to your overall white damage: the DPS on a weapon takes that into account automatically. So if your polearm does 200 DPS and your two swords do 80 DPS, your polearm still wins.

Any character that duel wields gets a much greater chance to miss. It's one of the reasons Deathknight duel wielding is not as competitive anymore. Warriors, Shaman, and Rogues all have talents that increase their hit rating.

As a little test try melee attacking a target dummy with 2 swords and then try with a polearm.

I can remember two very cool daggers in Kara that I eventually picked up. "Eventually" because I would always defer to a rogue for those and any other daggers would not have the stats I was looking for. I used them for a while, mostly just to skill up that weapon. I don't remember them being much worse or better as far as my AP. As Fox said, you have to be careful and consider all bonuses on the items in question.

So, as little as hunters actually use melee, I would defer to other classes.

It would have to be one bad ass dagger that didn't nerf my AP, and the chance to pick up two before I would even consider rolling.

I'd still roll before DE if I could make any use of it and because I am a loot whore.

Pole Arms are secksey.

Just to illustrate how much hit rating you need to dual wield...for an enhance shaman, the dual wield hit cap for (for white damage) is 656 on a raid boss...I'm not sure it's even possible to get that much hit. I'm assuming all classes that dual wield require a similar hit rating, not counting talents that increase their hit rating.

However, shaman class mechanics allow us to be fine with the spell hit cap which is 341, because a significant amount of our damage comes from our shocks and our lightning bolt when we have 5 stacks of maelstrom weapon. This number also puts us well over the "melee special" hit cap for stormstrike and lava lash. It's typical for an enhance shaman to miss about 10% of their white damage melee strikes.

Ok lots of good points here but let me point out one key factor about the hit reductions and the 2 hander vs 2 one handers debate...hunters don't melee for shit! That's like a mage stabbing shit instead of bombing fire balls. The only time I ever melee is in pvp and then my goal is to wingclip and get the hell out of there so I can shoot em. Also when you do happen to get in close for whatever reason you what to hit it (actually hit it, not just swing at your target and miss) and hit it hard on your way out. A big slow 2 hander is the only way to do that.

As for stats (and enchants for that matter)... Fren hit the finer points more or less as to why and why not. You can't just try to stack one stat (like agility). You have to look at the big picture... Attack power, armor pen, crit rating, hit etc. Also if an item ever has strength or expertise it's not an item for you. Hunters have no use for either. It's just wasted stats. But anyway, as a pretty experienced hunter I have yet to see a really decent combo of one handers that out weighed the big 2 handers. Yes Hunters can dual wield and I have. But those times were when I was leveling when a decent 2 hander was not available. I see dual wield as a little more than something to give you some versatility with your melee weapons as you level.

Maybe one day Blizz will come around and give hunters some solid melee attacks and give value to dual wield but that's not happened as of yet.

My point of view in this issue basically boils down to who can get the most use out of an item. As an example, let's say there's a toon of the plate melee class variety (DK, ret pally, warrior) and a hunter. Both toons are using Runeblade of Demonstrable Power. Let's say Cryptfiend's Bite drops. Which toon should have priority on the item? My point of view here says that the melee class should since they are able to completely make use of all the features of the polearm. The same sort of logic goes for one handed weapons. The difference here is that the hunter will be grabbing 2 one handed weapons that could have gone to 2 different rogues and (maybe) substantially upped their raid dps.

I'm not saying that hunters should not roll on melee weapons, but I think there should be some dependence on how a toon uses an item when people are rolling for items.

Thanks guys,

Let me just say that I would never roll against a rogue (or any other class) for a melee weapon unless I asked the group if it was reasonable. I just find that I tend to lose a lot of rolls and go around with pathetic gear and stats while seeing items that could potentially* upgrade me going to DE because I am too shy to speak up during the fast paced instance/raid.

*I say potentially because it has all the same stats as my 2-hander but giving 3/4 the bonuses and I figure that if I had two of them with similar stats they both might be better than what I have until I finally get that "Hawt" hunter weapon.

I find that no matter how long I look at the numbers I can never do the math fast enough to really see how the stats will affect me. I know I want agility, attack power, stamina and intellect as much as possible and that aparently my hit rating needs to get to 17% before I can really start focusing on all of these (at least that is what I think C-Rob and Syl were saying). I know that Strength, Spirit, Expertise, Armour piercing and Spell power mean next to nothing to me. As for the rest I am lost.

This is getting far too debate-like.... But still.... :)

Which toon should have priority on the item? My point of view here says that the melee class should since they are able to completely make use of all the features of the polearm.

Until they make an axe, polearm or staff with 0 physical DPS, hunters can never completely make use of all the features of a weapon....

I'm not saying that hunters should not roll on melee weapons, but I think there should be some dependence on how a toon uses an item when people are rolling for items.

Make your comparison complete then. :) Throw in there that the hunter gets a bonus to attack power from the agility and, if they're survival, a lesser bonus from the stamina. If it's an arms warrior rolling, they may have spec'ed into poleaxes, in which case they get bonus to crit and crit damage. Neither paladins nor DKs, so far as I know, get any additional benefit from poleaxes or the stats on the item that the other classes do not. (I do not yet get feral attack power and how it works so I beg ignorance here as to how the item applies to druids. They also get bonuses from agility though.)

It's not so much that the weapon would be better for either the hunter or melee DPS class: it's still a good upgrade for either. It's that the melee DPS class has many weapons better suited to them (i.e. any two-hander with strength) which they will be the only ones rolling on. If you can pick up Cryptfiend's Bite, you've probably already killed Maexxna, who drops the far more suitable The Jawbone. If that item drops next run, the DK/warrior/paladin who picked up the polearm on the previous run would probably still see that as an upgrade. For the hunter, there aren't really many better items to get without hitting another tier of gear.

aparently my hit rating needs to get to 17% before I can really start focusing on all of these

I'm pretty sure BM hunters have the same hit cap as all the others, which is to say 9%. You're talented into focused aim, so that drops it to 6% for you, and with a dranei in the group you'd only need 5%. You're at 4.5% already, so not really that much further to go.

(17% is the spell hit cap.)

I'm pretty sure BM hunters have the same hit cap as all the others, which is to say 9%. You're talented into focused aim, so that drops it to 6% for you, and with a dranei in the group you'd only need 5%. You're at 4.5% already, so not really that much further to go.

(17% is the spell hit cap.)

OH!


Cool!


WOOT! I don't totally suck <does a little happy dance>

BTW Fren...how the hell do you find time to learn everything there is to know about these things?!?

There is one other issue here. VS has decided that we will not have any kind of DKP point system for assigning loot to people that raid the most and that is fine but... As a raid leader I would rather a rare item go to someone that has done everything they can to get the most out of their toon. This includes getting everything enchanted, gemmed and finding out where the easy upgrades are to get.

There are literally dozens of upgrades you could get from other sources. There is no reason you shouldn't have Conqueror's Scourgestalker Headpiece and Conqueror's Scourgestalker Tunic. They cost 58 emblem of conquest each and you can get them from any level 80 heroic or raid.

Every belt you ever get should have a eternal belt buckle and as a ranged dps you will always see a huge improvement from adding something like a heartseeker scope to your gun or bow.

I do better damage than a lot of raiders on this server that have access to better gear than me and it's because of all of the tweaking I've done to the gear I do have and figuring out where the upgrades I had access to are. Sure it would have been easier if I had won Fury of the five flights when it was an upgrade to me but I didn't and I figured out what to get instead.

Mish, I had problems doing the math fast enough on potential upgrades too, until I downloaded Recount which does it for me. :D I cannot recommend that addon enough.

EDIT: As Fox pointed out, the addon I am talking about is RatingBuster, not Recount.

You sure it's recount you're talking about?

I have something called RatingBuster that I use for quick comparisons.

actually Armour pin is good for you the rest are whateversville however

with that said first things first is get your hit

262.24 Hit Rating &#8211; 0/3 Focused Aim
229.46 Hit Rating &#8211; 1/3 Focused Aim
196.68 Hit Rating &#8211; 2/3 Focused Aim
163.90 Hit Rating &#8211; 3/3 Focused Aim

you're doing ok right there at 148 hit and 3/3 Focused Aim (you might miss a boss 3 to 5 time over a whole run). you could use a little more but I would not stack any. it'll likely work out with a new item here or there.

as BM you dont need to worry about haste... though it's nice and not to be avoided

agility and attack power are your friends as is crit. My advice is when comparing items just add your agility and attack power together to get a total AP value for an item. keep it in the back of your mind you'll also get some crit and armor for agility as a bonus but don't over do it. for example your wrath spear has a 26 agility enchant but it would be much better to have the 85 or 110 attack power enchant. even raid buffed the 26 agi will only be about half as much ap

Your helm and shoulders could be replaced with emblem loot pretty easily. that stuff is so nice. I'd be working on that.

I'd like to also amend the "I have not seen a good combo for 2 onehanders" thing. there is but there is kind of a catch. The arena loot is bad ass... BUT to get em ya got to earn arena points and have a decent rating so it's kind of a catch 22.

as mentioned RatingBuster will help you a lot on the quick comparison for loot roll

You sure it's recount you're talking about?

I have something called RatingBuster that I use for quick comparisons.

Yes. That. An addon that I have that starts with the letter R. RatingBuster it is.

You all are far out, man.

(I do not yet get feral attack power and how it works so I beg ignorance here as to how the item applies to druids. They also get bonuses from agility though.)

While I'm not going to really weigh in on the debate on who should get priority on what when it comes to gear, I will edify you on this point.

The amount of Attack Power we get off a weapon can be based on 4 stats. Feral Attack Power (FAP), Attack Power, Strength and Agility.

To start with, this is the equation used to determine the Feral Attack Power of a weapon:
FAP = (DPS-54.8)*14*
so a 100 dps weapon would give us 632.8 feral attack power.

Attack Power and FAP are even on a 1 to 1 ratio

1 Strength = 2.37864 AP (with appropriate feral talents)

1 AGI = 1.18932 AP
but 1 AGI also gives us 0.0129744% crit.

So if we look at , it gives us 2083 FAP + 200 AP + 60.65532 AP from agi, for a total of 2343.65532 AP.

Also, the 51 agi and 58 Critial Strike rating gives us a total of 1.9376944% crit (1 crit rating = 0.022% crit)

The haste mostly helps our white damage, which is a pretty substantial amount of our DPS, but not enough to justify weighing it over other stats.

Ultimately, when looking at a weapon for kitty DPS, I first look at FAP. Us kitties love our FAP. FAP is awesome.

Agility is the next highest stat, due to the AP and crit it gives us.

Armor Penetration is next on the list (and possibly weighed higher than Agi, but only at certain amounts)

Then Attack Power. I'd rather have high Agi and low Attack Power than high Attack Power and low Agi

Haste is weighed somewhere after that.

Strength is my last concern. Despite the hefty amount of AP it gives, weapons with STR are usually geared towards DK, Warriors and Paladins, so they tend to not have AGI and / or AP on them, making them lose out overall for feral druids. We're an AGI based class, plain and simple.

So while could definitely be an upgrade for a feral druid due to the STR and FAP on it, would always be preferable.


(Amazingly, though Hit and Expertise are helpful to kitty druids, we do not need to be capped in them to do excellent DPS. Crit, Agi and AP can make up for them. Really, the value of hit and expertise scales with the value of our gear. The better the gear, the more they do for us, but the better the gear, the better chance we'll have high amounts of those stats anyways. What they really do, however, is make our rotation (if you can call it that) easier to do. It's much easier to maintain a stable priority cycle when you're not being dodged and wasting energy and waiting for combo points.)