I don't know about you, but I've spent most of the last two days thinking about the Baron. You may have noticed, what with all of my posts about ways we can improve our chances against that horse-riding jerk.

Thursday was my first day in Scholo. And from the time we entered to the time we left Rammstein's bridge, I was challenged, but not overly so. It felt like every other time I'd made my first trip through an instance -- taxing but soon routine.

Then we hit the Baron, and it was like hitting a wall. I'm surprised we got him down to 50%, to be honest. It was, without a doubt, the toughest thing I've ever encountered in WoW.

And I loved it.

What the Baron made me realize is that the game fundamentally changes at level 60. I've heard a ton of people say that, but I never understood it until now. There are a series of challenges ahead of us, each with its own steep learing curve, each of which we can beat the Victorious Secret way.

Ahead of us is a lot of 5-man content. Scholomance. Stratholme. Dire Maul. Blackrock Spire. We can beat all of them; and we can do it without turning into the guilds we hate.

We're going to go into these places and we are going to get our asses kicked. Then we'll figure out what to change and what we need. Then we can, as a guild, collect the items we need. Maybe it'll be potions, maybe it'll be enchants, maybe it'll be cloth, leather or metal armor. Whatever it is, we have the ability to produce or procure what we need - and we can do it without resorting to "required donations" from guildies.

We will beat them all. We will beat them with the characters we want to play. We will have fun doing it.

Well put Gleja :)

With Blizzard's changes in 1.10 that reduce a lot of previously 10-man dungeons to 5-man, yes, everyone needs to rethink the best way to *finish* them. I have only seen the Baron die twice myself (both times were before 1.10 and we had more than 5 people). I have also met the Baron and failed to kill him twice (once before 1.10 with a group larger than 5, the other this past Thursday with a 5-man). Gleja is absolutely correct in that there is going to be a lot involved (as far as changes) in taking out bosses like the Baron. Potions, enchants, *special* things like the mechanical yetis, whatever it takes. We do need to think about how to better ourselves. In the meantime, we're just gonna' have a hell of a lot of fun because it's who we are!! We die...we die a lot. Hell, I usually die the most in any group!! Let's remember it's all about having fun, but at the same time, if anyone has any suggestions on how to advance past an obstacle, please don't hesitate to let us all know.

Agreed with the both of you guys, you really couldnt have put it better. I think that in addition to all that was siad I feel we need to take a look at the groups we are putting together and running these instances. I am in now way an expert about what classes need to be in on which runs but I know that some of you have this knowledge. A baron run with 3 rogues and 2 warriors just will not work as an example.

Totally agree with you Ben. Two warriors and three rogues may have been doable against the Baron in a 10-man raid. Obviously there's no healing power, or AoE or DoT power with that make-up in a 5-man. Based on VS's current roster, I think it would be hard to have 3 well balanced 5-man groups going up against any of the high level instances. Hell, every time I think about it, I think the best group would be a MT (warrior, Pally, Druid), off-tank (2nd warrior, pally, druid, hunter or 'lock with VW), rogue, main healer and AoE on the mage side (with sheep)...
That would leave the warlock's only chance as being the off-tank with the VW. Yes, the 'lock can do AoE with rain of fire, but it's a slow spell, with high mana cost and high threat against the 'lock. Perhaps that's why I die so much??
Anyway, the real point of this ramble is to say we should only do these instances with balanced groups. I know we had enough people for three groups for last Thursday's Strat UD run, but perhaps we should look at the make-up of the groups and not just who signs up first? (ok, kill me now, i'm drunk & tired)...

Balance is something we'll find out through practice. And once we have a good strategy figured out for a boss, we should be able to adjust it to fit all of our members.

I am so glad I'm not the only one who has been thinking about it so much! I think shadow resistance potions would definitely help, as well as the armor ones. So... I need to do a lot MORE fishing for stonescale eels, woo!

I'm going to try and post this again, since my original post was eaten by a network outage in my building.

I'm writing this from the perspective of being the MT on many 5-man Baron runs with my old Horde guild.

First, the Baron isn't that hard.  You just need a few things in place and some basic tactics and he should go down pretty nicely. 

Group composition:

1) A tank - Feral druid (well equipped), paladin (well equipped) or warrior that can hold aggro.  Remember, it's everyone's job in a group to help the warrior maintain aggro by not over dps'ing.
2) A competent healer.  I've done 5 mans successfully with a shadow spec'd priest (pre 1.10), a resto druid, and a holy spec'd priest.  I can't comment on how well a paladin would do as the primary healer.
3) A mage or warlock - Warlock Rain of Fire does enough damage to take care of the skeletons.
4) A dps class.  This can be a rogue, hunter, dps warrior, another mage or warlock.
5) Some other lucky fool.

Some general ideas about the Baron.

1) He has a AoE effect that does shadow damage.  Shadow Resists potions and buffs help here.
2) The MT should have 2 greater health potions and a healthstone (if available).
3) Casters should all have 1 major mana potion.
4) Everyone should have bandages (just in case)
5) No one should do ANYTHING to the Baron until the tank gets aggro.  This means no dots, no stings, no debuffs.  In terms of a warrior, that means 3 sunders at a minumum.  4 is best if you can wait that long.  Feral druids and paladins will need longer to establish aggro.  I'd suggest at least 20-30 seconds of pure dps'ing.  If there are two classes in the group that can heal, let the secondary healer heal the tank at this time, overhealing if needed.
6) Potions like stoneskin aren't very useful here.  It may help in conserving the healer's mana if the Baron doesn't get some lucky crits.  But crits aren't avoided because of stoneskin potions.  Remember, normal hits don't kill tanks.  Crits do.
7) It's imperative that the skeletons are brought away from the Baron or they will heal him.  Typically, a healer draws aggro when they spawn just by healing another party member, drawing them away from the Baron.  This is a GOOD thing.  It's then up to the AOE'ers to make sure the healer doesn't die.
8) Priests, don't shield the MT during the initial charge to the Baron unless it's a paladin.  Warriors and druids need the rage they get from taking damage to establish aggro.
9) Priests, do shield your AoE'rs BEFORE the skeletons spawn.  Shielding them means you don't have to heal them which means you can concentrate on healing the MT.
10) Priests, when the skeletons come for you, DO NOT FADE.  Let the aoe damage take aggro from you.  If you fade, the skeletons are more likely to go back to the Baron and heal him.
11) Healers, the only melee'er you should be healing is the MT.  If a rogue is going down because of the aoe, he/she should back off and bandage or use a potion (or a healthstone).  Your mana is needed for the MT.  The only other person you should be healing is the AoE'r.
12) Healers, be ready when the skeletons come.  Throw another heal on the tank and get ready to heal the AoE'er as needed.  Priests, if you've shielded the aoe'er you shouldn't even have to worry about it.
13) If you get aggro away from the MT, STOP ATTACKING.  Do not compound the situation by continuing to generate more hate making it harder for the MT to save your ass.
14) DO NOT STAND IN THE CENTER of the room.
15) Keep the Baron and the party on opposite sides of the room.
16) Casters/hunters near the Primary Healer:  Bandage them instead of making them cast a spell.  You'll be back dps'ing in no time.  The only time not to is when the skeletons pop and AoE needs to happen.

Some other class specific tactics.

Warriors
1) If you lose aggro on the baron, taunt or mocking blow to get it back.  Do not rely on challenging shout because you might pop it right when the skeletons are spawning which is NOT what you want to do.
2) After engaging your first 3 moves should be sunder armor.
3) Shield block + revenge, shield bash, sunder armor will generate much more hate than heroic strike or MS.  Once you've locked the aggro down, then you can switch stances a bit to hit him with MS to do a bit more damage, but remember to stay in Defensive stance to generate as much hate as possible.
4) Shield wall will help buy your healer time to heal you after a crit brings you dangerously low.
5) Demo shout the Baron to help mitigate his damage.  Don't use while skeletons are up!

Rogues
1) Feint whenever it's up.
2) Use 3 or 4 pt eviscerates, not 5.  A 5 point crit eviscerate followed by a crit backstab will likely draw aggro on you.
3) No poison dots.  Direct damage.
4) Hemorrage if you are spec'd for it.

Warlocks
1) Shadow Ward is your friend.  Cast it whenever it's available.
2) Keep your dots on him at all times.  Depending on your spec, CoD might be more effective than CoA.
3) Use your wand instead of spamming shadow bolts to help conserve mana for AoE.
4) Run an imp for the hp bonus to your tank.
5) Distribute healthstones to everyone in the group.  Give 3 healthstones to the main tank, one of each of the top 3 stones you can create. 
6) If your an MD, the imp will give you a 20% reduction to your threat generation.  Use it. :)
7) Life tap occassionally to keep your mana up if you start running low.  Bandage yourself if you need to.  Don't wait for the healer to heal you.
8) If you're running with a druid as main healer, you might want to consider summoning a VW to demonic sacrifice for the shield so you can aoe.  You'll need mana pots or lifetap + bandages to get the mana back, but it will help tremendously.
9) This is one of the only encounters where I think having a firestone is helpful IF you have a good 1h weapon (stats).

I can't really comment on the other classes because I don't know enough about them to post a strategy for handling things.  It is really a straight forward battle.  Dps on the Baron, and keep the skeletons away from him.
~V

Nice Val!

Holy crap Val, that was great! The first time I ever encountered the Baron (and I'm pretty sure there were others that were seeing him for the first time too), it was pre 1.10, so we had more than 5, don't know if we had a full 10, it seemed like he went down like clock-work. Maybe everyone was doing what you described (for me it would have been by accident!), but again, we did have more than 5, which I'm sure helped. I've only hit the Baron once with a 5-man, and we never got him below 45%, and I think we tried him 3 or 4 times. I've only read your post twice so far, but I think it needs to be printed, framed and hung on the wall next to my PC!!! ;D
Again, that was a great guide to the Baron...you should write more!

Wow, excellent post Val!

By the way, my nuts miss you terribly.

Excellent post!

I'm generally good at avoiding agro when I need to, however I have noticed that when I step back to bandage, I am getting hit by damage. I stay against the wall, so it shouldn't be the seal in the middle of the room. I know he has an aoe, is it an aura type thing?

My bandaids keep getting interrupted.

If you stay back against the wall where we first go in, I don't think you should get interrupted there.

The seal will do damage to you if you stand on it.

The baron has an AOE aura that can be tricky to get away from.  Typically the tank will pull him to the first pile of bones on the right from where the party groups up.

If you need to bandage, you need to run to the opposite side of the room OR you have to time it so that you start bandaging right after you take a pulse of damage.

If the baron is not healed by his skeletons and people are doing good dps to him, he should go down pretty quickly. But that assumes that everyone is "doing their job."  In 5 man, everyone has to know what their role is and they have to execute it properly.

Even the best execution doesn't always guarantee success.  A couple of lucky shots from the Baron on the main tank at the wrong time can spell doom for the group.  It happens.  A group with a lot of experience (and the right gear) can recover from that.  We're going to fail at first more than we succeed, but we'll learn from that.

I had two main problems with the Baron.

1) If I was all the way against the wall, the MT was out of my healing range.
2) The skellies nailed me so fast, that I couldn't get a spell off.

I was 58 then and am 60 now. So maybe it'll be easier for me next time.

My biggest problem with the skellies is keeping them grouped. I'll get off a rain of fire which kills them fast, but frequently there are a couple or so outside the area, and they run over and heal the Baron. By the time I'm done with the first bunch, a new group has spawned and already with the Baron. Then I'm forced to drop a rain of fire over the Baron, just to kill the skellies. I know we've talked about using the holy water, and I think it would be a good idea for one of the off-tanks/dps'ers near the Baron to have some holy water, so they can take out the skellies that are trying to heal the Baron.

Good info, Val.

I had two main problems with the Baron.

1) If I was all the way against the wall, the MT was out of my healing range.
2) The skellies nailed me so fast, that I couldn't get a spell off.

I was 58 then and am 60 now. So maybe it'll be easier for me next time.


1) Shadow resist buff and shield yourself if you need to stay within the AoE to heal the MT. Back against the wall to bandage yourself, rinse and repeat.

2) If you're getting hit for more than 5 seconds by the skellies, the AoE'r isn't doing their job. DPS on the Baron for the AoE'r is secondary to dealing with the skeletons. So if I'm halfway through a 6 second cast and the skeletons pop, as an AoE'r my immediate response is to cancel the spell and start casting my AoE. If it looks bad for the healer, I may pop hellfire instead of rain of fire simply because it's faster and does more damage.

My biggest problem with the skellies is keeping them grouped. I'll get off a rain of fire which kills them fast, but frequently there are a couple of so outside the area, and they run over and heal the Baron. By the time I'm done with the first bunch, a new group has spawned and already with the Baron. Then I'm forced to drop a rain of fire over the Baron, just to kill the skellies. I know we've talked about using the holy water, but I think it would be a good idea for one of the off-tanks/dps'ers near the Baron to have some holy water, so they can take out the skellies that are trying to heal the Baron.



This tends to happen when you have one of the dps characters pop off an aoe effect (like a tank hitting demoralizing shout) at the wrong time and in the wrong position. If the tank has the baron in the proper position, aoe shouts, blade flurry, etc. shouldn't affect the skeleton spawn as they'll be out of range.

If the tank has the Baron not quite in the right spot, then stuff like that will happen where 1 or 2 skeletons will break off from the pack. Holy water, grenades, etc. can be used in an emergency, but I don't think they will do enough damage to kill off the skeletons.

Rather than rely on them, learning where to bring the Baron and making sure each person isn't popping off aoe effects at the wrong time is where I think we should be concentrating.

Having contingencies is a great thing and will help when things go to hell. Relying on them when they aren't necessary for the encounter will make other boss encounters, which tend to be much harder, impossible.

In our group it was my fault the first time we couldn't get the Baron down. I had used consecrate, and then the skellies popped, and so they stuck around and healed the Baron, and the AoEr was going ER ING PERHAPS YOU COULD SEND THOSE MY WAY.

Obviously I will not use Consecrate this the next time I attempt it.

It's great to have these wonderful strategies, but I want to caution people on becoming... hard core-ish and please don't fuss at anyone because they happen to maybe screw up a little. I'm sure we'll all do our best to do our respective 'jobs'. Ok, that being said, I'm excited about this! The tactics are just what we needed to be able to understand how to beat that bastard down.

Now all we need is 'Val's guide to obtaining the best hookers and blow without having to pay off law enforcement officers'.

Now all we need is 'Val's guide to obtaining the best hookers and blow without having to pay off law enforcement officers'.

What? You haven't received your copy yet? Everyone else has...ooops, was she not supposed to know that?

you can't leave me out of the loop!!!

dirty people.

While I haven't had a chance to take the Baron yet, I would like to throw in my 2 cents. Once you hit 60, you continue to level with gear instead of xp. Set pieces are great, but I've found it really helps to be sure you get the best in your ring, neck and trinket slots, and get good stuff for your chest, legs, head and so on while you're waiting for your set BoPs to drop. I know I'm drooling over some of the phat lewts I've looked up in DM. I'd love it if we could get some people to farm Tribute. Then we can just stun that silly Baron into an awed stupor with our fabulous blues and purples.

Also, what if the off tank (assuming the party has one) demo shouts or other such gathering abilities and then leads the skellies away on him/herself so they can be aoe'd away from the Baron himself but still in a clump?

Sherica is my Warcraft hero and I agree with pretty much everything she just said.

I think we are keeping an awesome balance so far in being well organized without being scary FIFTY DKP MINUS FOR STANDING IN THE WRONG PLACE, but it is always good to remember that we're here to have fun. In ten years this game will be replaced by a new one, and no one will remember or care who was the first to wear the Furious Helm of Wankery. :)

THAT SAID, Phouka is right, there is stuff in DM that is technically better than the class sets. I am just the biggest of big dorks and want all my armor to match. I got these plate pants in Scholo that matched my tabard and was all SQUEE THEY LOOK GOOD WITH MY TABARD. You can ask her. She was there.