I was contacted by a guild member tonight about Clan and Edra's behavior during instance runs. The long and short of it is this:

1) during their instance runs, they have gotten Tier 0 pieces. Edra has sold everything they can't use on the AH.
2) Via a mistell, a guild member found one of them (Edra) bragging about how much she'd sold Devout Gloves and Bracers for on the AH.
3) They've attempted to greed LF items in Strath while other guildies were present. untrue. read below.
4) They may not have sent loot from last week's LBRS to the vault. This is uncertain.

Based upon my discussion with the parties reporting the problems I decided to talk to Clan. He's always struck me as the leader of the pair. My original reaciton was to boot him. Instead we had a very long conversation. I have to paste together the screenshots. I'll post them here when I'm done.

ok. conversation here. It's very long, but I ask that you do read all of it.

http://iwhitney.hopto.org/~inky/vs/ec.jpg

After reading it a second time, I have the following opinions.

1) Dude's a dick. Boot him & her.
2) He raises a few good points about handling vault requests & updating rpgo. I think we can handle that better, although I'm too tired (having now spent almost 2 hours on this escapade) to offer any solutions.
3) Dude's a dick.
4) I think our loot rules already handle everything he's bitching about.
5) Um.....dick?

He really is a dick, nothing we can do about that. My first time grouping with them was in Scholo the other night and within the first 5 mins I was ready to kick his ass out myself and then explain later.

So, I let him do his thing, get his ass kicked a couple times (for many fights, I didn't even unstealth and I appologize if that put any stress on the group I was with) but he refused to listen to me, and others so fine.. yeah mr hunter guy, go ahead and pull tightly grouped mobs that do shit you have never seen before (like the summoner guys in Scholo).

Eventually he kind of let up, and listened to us a bit, although they were all uppity at me. I stealth and walk around, I'm a fuckin rogue, it's what I do. I line up my shots, figure out what I need to sap, what mobs are around, whatever they start yelling at me cause not everyone's mana is back. I wasn't gonna do anything! Gah!

He does have some good points with how some things are handled, and maybe some of the things aren't needed so much anymore. I haven't checked the vaults recently since I know that nothing is in there that I really need, at least for my main. And of course if something drops "on their own time" then it's theirs by all means and they don't have to offer it up if they don't want to. At the moment, if something drops that is either tier 0, or potentially useful to the guild while in a guild group, if it isn't needed with the current group then it is offered to everyone online and sent to the vault, usually with a followup post on the boards saying "Hey we got this and it is in the vault now if you want it". Recent examples for me would be 2 books that dropped in BRD the other night. The preist book and druid book, I beleive. The first two. Yeah, maybe not that useful to much anyone, especially mains.

That being said, perhaps we can add in an alternative. I would have to check the roster, but I beleive that really everyone that is doing these instances already have the items that are common/boe. The market is shitty for them right now anyway, but instead of automatically sending it to the vault do a greed roll on it. As for the BoP, obviously if you can't use it then there is nothign you can do with it. DE it, roll on the shard which is potentially more money and useful anyway. Green BoP stuff doesn't DE well, or isn't worth it in most cases so might as well get that 1-4g that you can vendor it for.

As for the vault response, I think Killi (seems to be the main vault keeper type person) is doing great, only thing I could think of to improve this would be to let others have access to his account and I sure as hell don't expect him to do that, I know I wouldn't give out my password.

Clan, as a person, doesn't really fit into VS but he doesn't not fit either. He's not here to screw anyone over and we aren't here to screw him over. He's not a very joking person, takes some things too seriously and thinks he is the shit of all shit. And is a dick.

It was very hard to read through all of his board meeting, propaganda-ish, talking-circles-around-you-while-not-changing-my-point-of-view-ever shit. He's an ass. He's an ass who thinks he knows it all. Which is a shame because Edra is really very nice.

I noticed during the conversation a constant referral to 'farming' the instances, and him not seeing us EVER run 'farming runs'. What the FUCK does he think we're doing every week? There are at least four runs scheduled for this week. It is apparent he doesn't check the site, or go through the new posts very often. And yet still, he is adamant that he and Edra are the only one doing things such as farming instances. That, to me, says 'I'm a know-it all who will never be proved wrong because as you see... I know it all. Inherently. I know everything'.

He reads what he wants into the comments we make. Someone says 'gear is great, but it shouldn't be the focus' and he reads 'we like the gear we have'. Which is bullshit. We ALL want better gear, why the fuck would we stay up till midnight running instances just to have to get up and go to work in the morning? It's not for the novelty factor, that's for sure. But (which is one of the reasons why we are so great) the community factor is a far more important issue, and solidifying as a newly grown guild is another FAR more important issue. Getting Phat Lewt in the meantime is great. If we simply wanted to come together as a group and in friendship, we'd hang out in Goldshire like all of the other *ahem* people.

There are a couple of people who don't precisely fit with us. Different personalities, etc. For the most part, it's a great mix, each one adding his/her own individual flair. Clandara, on the other hand (and I still feel it's a great shame that his wife/whatever is so nice and has to be linked with such a dick) is out for himself. He's constantly talking about 'return' like he's a fucking accountant or investor and that kinda pisses me off. I don't play this game for how much goddamn gold I have in the bank. And HOW did he request for the vault items? From the RPGO site? If he'd bother to read ALL of the relevant posts, he would know that there is a system for the way we do things, and if you follow the system, you get what you need. Within a week, IF that long, I had my gems that I requested for Smoopsie to up her engineering. And because I took said gems, I sent a crapload of useful items to the vault. It's give and take, for the sake of community. NOT for a 'return'.

Ass.

My first response is at the very least, I don't ever want to group with him. Even if I'm doing absolutely nothing, I don't want to group with him. And that's been since Sunken Temple. It's like they are bored and we don't fit what he thinks will 'occupy' him.

I truly had a hard time reading his responses. They were scattered, incoherent, and ran in circles.

You're not the only one who won't group. I know at least 2 others. I might group with him, but only if ML is on and he's not the looter.

In my original post, I mistakenly said they rolled greed while in Strath. That is not true. I believe it was Aro that rolled, and I believe she rolled because she didn't trust Clan and Edra to deliver things to the vault. This is speculation on my part.

Torrin's got a good point about the BoE stuff. But a problem we have is that we don't know what everyone has. I don't have all the Devout BoE stuff, for example. I only have the bracers.

What cracked me up going when I was formatting the screenshots was the guild chat that was going on in between our conversation. It was all guildies asking for and receiving help from other guildies. For example, Jam linked to 14512. Which dropped for his group and which he plans on sending to me. That pattern sells for 150g, at least. Clan just doesn't see that. He's in his own world.

As for the vault thing, I don't know how he made his request. I just now realized that the vault thread is in the members-only section. He only got access to that recently. So he must have done it through the rpgo interface.

I have a nice reply to Clan floating in my head. I need to type it up, after my coffee sinks in, and post it here.

*Warning* I've read through the screenshots twice now, I'm pretty fucking pissed so take what I say in that vein. *Warning*

#1. I like Edranarine, she seems pretty cool.

#2. Torrin and I were whispering back and forth during last weeks Scholo run so I have a decent idea of what went down then.

#3. I'm pissed.

#4. Everything he says is contradicted by 3 MONTHS of farming runs that I started on February 23rd and were later significantly added too by Gleja. The first ones were layed out as PURE FARMING RUNS for tier 0 gear, namely pants. As soon as we had enough 55+'s we were running these things. WTF IS HE TALKING ABOUT?!!!! -50 DKP'S FOR NOT READING THE FUCKING BOARDS!!!!!11!!!!!!!!!!

#5. I suppose these threads have nothing to do with improving our gear and are just there to raise our post counts. Crafter Compendium, Wishlist for 5-10 Man Instances, Dungeon 1 to Dungeon 2 armor comparison, and many more.

#6. What's this "no return" bullshit?!! This thread Tier 0 Class Set Inventory was damn near empty when I first put it up and now look at it. That's some damn good progress so far!

#6. We don't help each other?!!! So I suppose I ran Ranulf out to the burning steppes and circled that fucking zone for 2 hours, 3 days straight in the dead of morning for my goddamn health?!! Or was it for the wonderful scenery? I could have been sleeping, picking my ass, or whacking off to internet porn, ANYTHING would have been more productive.

#7. Edranarine requested some illusion dust from me the other morning to get her enchanting to 300 and I sent it out immediately as I was updating the RPGO stuff.

#8. I could care less what they do with their loot. But if you're going to pull some double-standard and bitch because you see "no return" while you're AH'ing off Tier 0 (or other good loot) that a Guildie could use then FUCK YOU. You will never, ever get something from me. How's that for some "return" you ass-hat.

#9. I can't stand his holier-than-thou-I'm-always-right teeniebopper attitude.

#10. the terms dick, prick, ass-clown, shithead, etc are not good enough for this guy. He's nothing more than a selfish, cock-sucking, cum-guzzling queen.

#11. My opinion, sic him Ashu. We'll save the rest for shark chum.

If for whatever reason he stays in the guild, Clandara is now on my "never group with" list. Primarily because I'll eventually get pissed enough to say or do something that will inevitably cause a whole shitload of trouble ya'll probably don't want to deal with.

This is roughly what I plan to send him:

I've reread our conversation a couple of times now and I've been discussing it with my fellow officers. There are things I wish I'd said more clearly, so let me try to summarize.

I don't know how much you know about your fellow VS members. Until recently you haven't had full access to the forums, so you haven't been able to see all the applications.

On average we're about 30. We have kids. We have wives or husbands, some of whom play WoW, some of whom don't. We have jobs with weird hours; we're actors, writers, programmers, 3rd shift tech geeks, moms and dads.

So when you ask for 'instance farming', think of what that means to the average VS member. We already hit instances 4-5 nights a week (Tuesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday and Sunday). Where exactly are we going to get time for more? I'm personally maxed out on time. Unless I want to abandon my girlfriend, I can not spend more time in WoW.

With our current roster, we're doing as many instance runs as we can. There just isn't time for more. If you feel that this isn't enough to help you with your goals then there's nothing I can do. VS just isn't going to give you what you want.

Both of you told me about goals you have in the game. Epic mounts and tier 0 gear. What happens when you have those? Are you looking for Tier .5? Tier 1?

If you want .5, then I expect you'll be able to get it, either with VS groups or with PuGs. But if you are thinking about Tier 1 then you need to know this - VS has so designs to hit the Molten Core. Ever. The idea of end game raiding is distasteful to many members of this guild. We may change our mind, but I'd be surprised if we hit the Core before the expansion. So if you have desires for loot beyond Tier .5, VS just isn't going to give you what you want.

Clan, in our conversations last night you stated again and again how you felt the guild was giving you no 'return.' I provided many examples of guildies that had offered to help both of you. But these examples didn't help much. All I can say is that VS has been ready and willing to help both of you. And we recognize and appreciate the help you've given us - help like Edra's purification of felcoth, for example.

But if you've honestly gotten no 'return,' then you'll never be satisfied with VS. If all the time I've spent personally scheduling and running instances for you doesn't count for anything; if all the time Jakeiria's spent organizing instances for you doesn't count for anything; if all the people (myself included) who farmed for Blood of the Mountain doesn't mean anything; if this guild's constant desire to help all of its members doesn't mean anything - well, then, VS just isn't going to give you what you want.

Damn nice post Gleja.

Too nice for my mood lately though. I say Lock & load, fire when ready. Release the hounds! Banzai!
See this.. this.. is. my. BOOMSTICK!


yada yada

I ever tell you that I met Bruce? He came to my movie theater to talk before a showing of Evil Dead. Man, was he drunk. Very funny.

Bruce is awesome, I met him at a comic and sci-fi convention years ago.

Send the letter, Glej. I'm betting the response we get will be the same shit spewing. If so, Ashu goes to work. There's no room for this in VS and we don't want the drama that all of this will likely produce. Best just to cut our ties.

Thanks. I will send a PM to both of them.

Sent. But we should think about responses to things I think he might do:

1) Demanding all gear he sent to the vault be returned.
2) Badmouthing us in the forums.

I'll happily boot him tonight if needed. I've been itching to use my newfound power. bwahahaha.

The guy is the type that 'knows everything'. If he doesn't know about it, then it doesn't exist. Even though it's apparent that practically every night of the week we're in some instance for the nth time, linking items for anyone to request in guild chat, this guy still thinks we just hang out and chat while grinding some silly mob or quest. He seems incapable of understanding that when gear drops, it's a glorious thing, because we DON'T have time to raid the same instance 3 times a night.

And when it was pointed out that, though we LOVE our gear, we love our comraderie and friendship more. Solidifying as a group is more important than 'farming an instance'. I think I said this before...

I'm pretty irked as well, I see why you're so angry Ripp. It's very easy to get defensive about all of the work you guys have put into helping EVERYONE and for him to dismiss it, when he didn't even KNOW about it, is very irritating.

His general demeanor is so obnoxious.

Go get her Ray!!

Ummm, yah, um, dick!

I have personally avoided grouping with either one of them, and I knew it was only a matter of time before the shit hit the fan. I thought it was pretty obvious, but again I did not have any personal experience with them, just word of mouth.

heh. 1.) With pleasure 2.) We'll handle it with a single simple post from myself.

By the way, this is EXACTLY how this should have been handled. Great job, Glej!

Hey, I'm curious about something in regards to booting:

I have always had the impression that Ashu was the Doberman for one role, and one role only: To remove someone who is going to potentially give us a buttload of shit. I can be caring and tactful, but with this whole 'booting' issue, I kind of figured that I was the one to do things Mafia style... you know.. roll'em out. Leave the caring at the door, not try to hurt or offend anyone but definitely not there to take any shit :D

Am I right or should I be revising my thoughts... Ashu is a bit of a bitch so, I'm not sure how she'll take it if she has to be kind.

You start off kind but take no shit.

I was only offering because I dealt with him last night. But you're more than welcome to give him the bum's rush, if necessary. I'd rather he read my PM & decide to leave of his own accord.

Yeah, I agree Gleja. That would be best case scenario. If, on the other hand it gets nasty, then let me know. I, by no means, want to step into something unless you know.. yoos needs a body gahd or som'tin.

I was just telling Zanphart that if Clan signed up for the Wednesday Strat run that I would probably bail. I caught some of Torrins frustrations in officer chat the other night and it just enforced my own thoughts that were rattling around my head.

Ripp, you are funnier than hell. I love reading your posts when your pissed (which seems to be quite often :) )

Gleja should be running for office. Where I would tell him to Fuck Off, you put those thoughts into a very diplomatic and well thought our response. I envy that!

One of the factors that makes this guild so great is that we have a group of very unselfish people who put others needs before their own. I don't know how many times I have gotten items, especially from Gleja, to pass down to our up and coming warriors. Items that might have sold for a decent amount of gold that I'm sure he could have used. It's this selflessness that makes this guild stand out.

The only Epic mounts that the guild should be helping out with is the Pally and Warlock's. I helped Val and Moemi with theirs and had a blast. I look forward to getting Zan and Jam's theirs when they are ready. The epic is a costly timesink and only a status symbol.

Yeah, when they said they were doing all this to get gold for epic mounts my heart sunk. That 40% speed boost is worth all this drama?

He's a fucking hunter. Go out and farm devilsaur leather...

There are so many ways to make money. Instances aren't the place for it -- especially when running with VS.

I think we're on a good track with the loot rules clarification. One thing I think we might want to make sure people understand is that we're not pushing C & E out because they sold loot that they got in PUGs. I figure that if you want to run in a pug, you can do whatever you want with the loot. Personally, I'd give it to the guild. But not everyone feels the same. That's fine.

I just don't want the guild to get the impression that VS is laying claim to every piece of loot they get.