The other topic had a little heat on it so it has been temporarily removed for now.

To clear up the question though, guild loot rules in ALL instances will be ML. If 4/5 of the party members are VSers then ML will still be used. If it's 3/5 or 7/10 then it is no longer considered a VS party and it will be the party leaders decision how loot will roll.

Set piece item drops in a VS party should always be vaulted. In a PuG, do what you want with it.

Just to clarify, this is on any night when the party is 4/5 or 7/10 VS, not just on the scheduled Thursday-Friday runs, correct? (My guess is yes, I just want to make sure.)

This is anytime the VS party is 4+/5 or 8+/10. ML is safe and we know we can trust our MLers not to make a mistake -- if they do, they get beat. ;)

This is only instance runs.

Thanks! :)

Sounds perfect!

I think what people need to realize is that it's really, REALLY important to keep those Tier 0 set pieces and also to hold onto good crafting plans. In a guild like VS, we're not aiming to load up on a huge number of members where we can run anything anytime. We're more along the lines of a big, goofy family. By sending Tier 0 set pieces or crafting plans to guildmates who need them, we're effectively making our *family* more powerful, more capable, etc.

There are 3 elements that are really critical to our endeavors to play around and enjoy ourselves in the higher level instances.

1) Gear - this is exactly what Killian et al are striving for, to make it possible for everyone to have their BOE set pieces. BOP will come in time. :)

2) Tactics - We learn as we do. :)

3) Luck - We have Widget the Lucky Gnome!

Widget the Lucky Gnome does not work for me. Maybe I need a lucky dorf!

I missed the other topic could you please summarize what it was about or reopen it?

I'm sorry, I don't agree with the rules you've set down. I believe it is wrong to insist that an item should go to the guild when not all the people who worked for it are members that guild. Beyond that, I believe it is wrong to force people to give away items they're specifically working for (excepting guild-organized runs, of course). In an instance run for the sole purpose of money-making, it is painful to give up an expensive item and frankly, contribution to a "casual" guild should be voluntary, not forced.

I understand you are a young guild and still finding out what works and what doesn't. I hope you find something that works for you, but please keep in mind that insisting on taking items without offering some way to compensate the people who earned them is likely to cause friction for you again. I know you all hate DKP, but that's why such systems exist.

This is my resignation. I want to impart that this is not all about not being allowed to sell a lucky rare drop set piece when I needed money and knew the guild couldn't help me with that. I have found your core group of officers and obviously good friends to be very distant, cold, and unapproachable. Specifically, I was very hurt when there were no congratulations offered when Clandara and I topped the DPS list on the Blightcaller raid (save for a scattered few from people I actually knew). This and other such behavior (I want to stress that this is on a general, not personal level), has led me to believe that this guild will not work out for me. Thanks for the opportunity to get to know some of you, I know I met a lot of people I liked. I hope this doesn't create a rift between me and those people, but I expect it will and I'm truly sorry for that. Goodbye.

While I understand your replies, I'm surprised and dismayed that my post apparently caused so much "heat" and that it was removed. However, I'm announcing my departure from VS. I will /gquit today, the main reason for this is not any "heat" as I did not even see that. Or any problems we have had, I prefer talking through problems to come to an agreement that satisfies everyone, over storming off with righteous indignation.

However, I absolutely refuse to be in a guild that steal items. In a 4/5 group, using ML, the ML will be forced to ninja for the guild per these new rules.

I refuse to be a part of this, and strongly urge you to change these rules before putting them into action. I think VS is a wonderful guild, full of wonderful people with whom I happen to have a slight disagreement with. I can't imagine anything good coming of this new set of rules, and a possible branding of "ninja" being added to the guild name after this happens. This would be unfortunate. Though it didn't work out between us, I harbor no ill will.

Both Talbon and Phouka have been removed from these forums. Proceed to discuss.

Did you send the LF gauntlets to the vault like I have a screenshot of you promising?

ETA: ... Whoops. Guess I should have read that they'd been dropped first. Heh.

The 5th person coming into a 4/5 VS group should know that if he can't use a BoE set item, he ain't gettin' it. As for our MLing, everyone gets picks on what they want. I do encourage allowing a picked-up party member getting priority on the pick especially if that person rocked.

I know I'm new to all this high-level shit, but how is it ninja to say 'hey, thanks for filling out the guild group, if boe set stuff drops that guildies can use, we'll be sending it on'?

I knew he wouldn't send the gauntlets when they freaked out at me -- I should have been firmer about asking KT to pick them up. I'm just sad that I really thought they were nice people. :/

Setting aside those two, I think largely it's being misunderstood exactly how many pieces we're talking about here. Normal everyday greens and blues that drop, even in guild runs, are usually going to end up being either used by members of THAT group, or sold by the winner, or DE'd.

The impression I always had was that we are trying hard to get the EXTREMELY important BOE Tier 0 armor pieces to the vault for any guild members who need them. This results in I believe 3 possible armor pieces per class. I'll try to find a list, but I believe it's the belt, bracers, and gloves for each classes specific armor set that are BOE and therefore can be sent.

I've always thought as well that crafting plans should be shared within the guild whenever possible as the more crafting can be done the better off we are! :)

By the same token, there are also epics that will at some point drop for us that may be usable within the guild - epic plans, or epic weapons, etc. There's no ruleset that I'm aware of for those, and there probably does not need to be other than very carefully discussing it within the group, but I REALLY like Gleja's method. With that, he typically offers the epic item(s) to any interested guildmates for 40-50% the normal going AH price. That way he still makes some money but keeps the useful equipment within the guild. Not mandatory or anything but that's an example I intend to follow anyway.

Yeah, generally when dealing with PUG etiquette (HAHA, I kill me) you just tell them up front what the loot rules are and if they disagree they can find another one? That's how I see most people doing it.

The officers have been discussing Edra and Clan most of the morning. I will have that thread moved here to let you all have a look at what took place leading to this small bit of dramatics.

Wow.
Okay, first of all, even though I'm relieved at the removal after all I've heard, I do think Talbon had a point in that in a 4/5 group or a 7/10, we could get branded as ninjas if we insisted that the non-VS member had no right whatsoever to roll on a BOE. However, I also think that most puggers who were making up one slot in a guild run would know that. We would let them have it if they could use it.

However, I do think just in case we should make that clear at the beginning of a run with one or two pug people in it, just to say, "Look, you're a mage, so if Valor drops, we would like to bank it." Most of them will agree to those terms as long as they get to roll on things they can use. We should definitely give them the option not to participate if they want the opportunity to roll on anything that will make them money, just to avoid bad press.

That said, I think I was wrong in my original assessment that they're aren't obsessed with loot. Both of them are way too focused on the loot, and need more of a hardcore guild. They aren't a good fit for the guild, and I wish they'd just focused on that instead of being nasty about it, but there it is. I don't have any problem with them wanting to focus on loot, but this is not the guild for it. I think what they were looking for in "casual" was a hardcore guild without DKP, so they could get what they wanted faster. Again: I have no problem with that, but it isn't how we roll.

Also, as long as the topic is here: damage meters are fun when everyone is mellow about wipes and competition, but it is not fun to use them if you're expecting actual kudos for it like they apparently were. I mean... WHAT? You didn't pet my little head after Blightcaller WHAT? When someone is that way about damage meters, all it does is make those who didn't come out on top feel bad about themselves. I don't mean we shouldn't use them, because they can be fun and informative. However, I don't think they should be used as something for which the highest scorers should be congratulated.

Seriously, "you didn't pat me on the head enough," wtf?

Also, I agree with Jami about following Gleja's examples on the sort of drops he described.

I almost always top the damage meter in my groups!!!! WHY DON'T YOU ALL TELL ME HOW AWESOME I AM?!!!! I HATE YOU ALL!!! YOU.. YOU... BASTARD PEOPLE!

I usually die the most in any group, and no one has ever congratulated me... :'(

Zan needs the 'red shirt' title.

I will be updating our loot policy just so it's more clear. I'll make sure to include everything that has been mentioned here.

Aw, CONGRATS Zan!

:D

Due to Zan constantly dying in groups, his voidwalker has just left the guild.

heh. I want to make it absolutely clear to everyone that you owe the guild nothing, nothing at all. The ONLY items we require being banked are set items found on instance runs when you're in a VS party. Everything else sent is totally on you and to be honest, unless you think the item is just SUPER! and needs to be shared, don't bother sending it. We all need money and I'd rather you make that 4g on selling it than having it potentially rot away in the guild vault. Thank you all so much for your kindness and generosity.

It needs to be made clear that it wasn't only Talbon's and Phouka's greed that got them pushed out of VS. It was their attitude and what they were looking for in WoW. They just weren't meant for us and didn't understand the secret.

w00t! we're ninjas!

...

And the damage meters.. he has it all wrong. all wrong. The top of the list means you get kicked in the nuts. It's really the only one with the highest death rating that wins the competition. Kari and Zan are in the lead.