Hey all! Just a quick note here about raiding with your up-and-coming hottie alts. I know many of you have been trying to get your alts keyed for Kara and we are seeing more and more newbie toons signing up for runs. We want to get you all in there but we are trying to be careful not to gimp the raids by having too many under-geared toons on any given run. Sooo.... we would like to remind you to please try and get some heroics under your belt before signing up for Kara. And get some gems and enchants on your shtuff while you're at it. This will make the raid leaders happy and when they're happy, we're all happy. See? Everyone's happy now! Even Those People Over There.

We will also try to post a few Kara runs just for Kara virgins and alts. Cause everyone loves popping Kara cherries.

And now for the long-winded explanation by Fox. (You knew it was coming ;))

I know a lot of us have been hard at work on our alts and have raced them through as quick as possible in order to get their Kara fragments.

I know this.... because I'm one of them. I just want to take a couple minutes to remind everyone of all the things that raid leaders have to consider before bringing in the brand new 70s.

A while back I wrote a big long winded post about gearing up your characters and making them the best that they could possibly be in order to try to surmount the wall we had found ourselves up against in Kara. Shortly after that we started the "Progressive Raiding" initiative to find out who was open to suggestions and willing to fight on the front lines in our progression.

Since that time we've managed to get ourselves to a place where we can clear Kara weekly and are making some headway in ZA as well. And we are all getting some really fantastic gear upgrades. So many that some of us now want to spread them around to our new alts.

I know I do. But I also know that I'm not ready with Zealot. I've been fortunate enough to bring him in a couple of times for chess and once for Illhoof but only because we already had plenty of AoE.

There was a post recently about minimum stat requirements for entering Kara. The problem I'm seeing now with this post is that its a little misleading. Those numbers would be what to shoot for with a new guild hitting Kara in order for them to have a fighting chance at contributing to the first couple fights. They are in no way sufficient to get past The Curator which we are now usually downing on our first nights. And we really would like to continue that progress, especially since we're going to be going for ZA on weeks when we get through Kara fast enough.

So, no I haven't brought Zealot in yet. I will soon but I have a couple things I need to work on with him still.

Here's what I have done so far:

1) I have crafted items that will likely last me through most of Karazhan.

2) I dropped all of my quests and ran every quest that gives an upgrade for my spec.

3) I have started running heroics when possible and have 2 epic drops for him as well as about a dozen instance drops for my three sets (Healing, DPS, Tanking)

4) I have done the rep grind up to revered with the Keepers of Time for my glyph of the defender

5) I'm halfway to exalted with the Aldor in order to get the Greater Inscription of Warding

6) I have enchanted almost all of my gear.

7) I've gemmed up with nearly all rare gems.

8) I bought an 850g item off the AH that is widely regarded as one of the best druid tank trinkets.

There are several things I still need to do before I'm ready. (Like the exalted Cenarion grind for earthwarden and finding a new pair of gloves).

These steps are especially important for anyone that plans on tanking or healing in Kara. I can probably tank Attumen or Moroes where I am now... but I think that's about it. And my dps set is lacking to be sure. So, no I haven't gone to Kara yet... because I'm not ready.

We will be able to get everyone's alts in soon and we might even run an "alt Kara" run once in a while as Sapph mentioned. But right now there are many other people's mains who are still trying to get drops from Kara.

The other thing that we need - as raid leaders - to consider is that sometimes we really, really need the dps/CC/healing/tanking that your main character puts out. And if we can't get that main... then we should probably be taking another player that can provide that as opposed to one of your alternates.

Or we're gonna start getting stuck on bosses again. And that isn't fun for anyone.

So please do what you can to get your alts up to speed before bringing them into Kara to be pulled along by the rest of the raid for free upgrades.

It would be a different story if we had all the drops we wanted already, but we don't yet. We have to consider the other members of the raid. And Those People Over There. :)

As normal Fox is full of wisdom.

What to see how close you are to ready?

Try running Heroic Sethekk, lol.

Jack and I did, and ..OUCH!

5 hours of ...OUCH

And we had to wave our Epic Flight forms goodbye for now. :(

We might try and bribe some of our end game raiding characters to power us through but even then they may only be able to bring us in one at a time. Both of us together may gimp the group too much to allow us to succeed

After this weekend Jack and I will definetly be changing our Kara aps unless it is a starter group or are only doing a specific boss.

I do want to say, speaking as one of those people trying to get a new alt into Kara, that I agree with the majority of this. I'm going to offer another opinion, but in principle, I agree. With Elath, I wouldn't even try taking her past the first couple of bosses yet; her gear's not good enough and won't be for a while.

However, the other side of that coin is that most of the people going through Kara right now are not only mostly fully geared, we're watching gear get sharded that our keyed alts could use. I know you know where I'm coming from on that, Fox -- you've made that comment a couple times as Zealot, and even run Zealot in for the chess event.

It would be a really nice compromise if we could get a few more Kara virgins runs going on -- we've had, what, two? And I don't just speak for alts on this -- I know we've got a number of mains who've never gotten deep into Kara for whatever reason, whether it's been because they've only just gotten high enough or because we, as a guild, got really good at Kara through October-November-December, which are really busy months for a lot of people.

That said...I've got to disagree on running heroics to prepare for Kara. Seriously -- hands up, who wants to run a heroic with a main healer or main tank who's got absolutely no Kara-level gear, and no experience with something as difficult as Kara? Speaking personally, I wouldn't. Heroics are harder than Kara. I could handle Attumen way before I could handle something like a heroic.

Once upon a time, we had class leaders -- people who had extensive knowledge of their chosen class, who could be the go-to guy if someone had questions on how to respec, what quests someone should do in order to get the best gear, what was needed in the guild at any given point, and so on. Maybe we need to look at that setup again, so people who are coming up and trying to get alts into Kara have a point of contact who can help them get properly geared up and enhanced in order to be an asset to the group. I know it would help me.

Ya I agree. I was trying to give examples of ways to gear up for Kara. I got in a few heroic Ramparts runs with Zealot. And with the daily heroic quests there is a chance that a stacked group might be looking for one more DPS spot to go. No.... I probably couldn't tank one yet. But I can't tank Kara yet either.

This post is as long as it is just to try and show people that the raid leaders are not being selfish in not bringing everyone's alts in as soon as they're keyed.

We'll get em in there, but we need to make sure that the group will succeed first. And for some of those first few bosses we may be able to make substitutions for alts. (Eg. The Tank brings his DPSer and the DPSer brings his Tank until Moroes)

As for class leaders, we have many people in the guild that are very knowledgeable on some classes. If anyone has a concern or is looking for info they can post questions here or send an officer a PM. There is a lot of info in the wiki on certain classes and we are always putting more in. (For example, that really great thread about Feral Gear a couple weeks back.) If you ask me a question about gear and I don't know the answer, I will hook you up with someone that can.

I think a big thing that has changed since we first starting doing any srs progression was that you couldn't get INTO the heroics until being exalted(?) with a particular faction, so you had definitely run the instance on regular several times. Now that you can be keyed for the heroic at honored (?) (I forget which order rep goes in, just know that the requirement was lowered), it might be misleading to tell folks to go to heroics before kara - they'll get spanked and owned at the SAME time.

So while I don't think we should say DON'T go to a heroic - it's good experience and you definitely want that practice - it's important to note that you should go through the regular version quite a bit and get the best of the gear that's there. Then you'll be ready, like Fox says, to do Kara through the Opera event.

Revered, Ing. <3

I think what we're trying to say is that if you have an alt that you'd like to bring to Kara (some of you have a lot of alts that you enjoy playing but don't really feel the need to make UBAH and that's totally cool), please take the time to put as much care into him/her as you do your main (or at least ALMOST as much...). This means running instances for the group experience, the gear-cuddling we do by enchanting and gemming, and as Stranger said, asking for advice from more experienced people who play your class. We don't have class leaders anymore but we would be happy to point you in the right direction by suggesting a person who is knowledgeable about your class to offer some advice.

As far as heroics go, yeah they're much harder for our alts now that we don't have to be revered to get in there. But they're invaluable for helping us focus on our group roles and our reflexes in dire situations. If our new alt tanks and healers can only manage 1 or 2 certain easier heroics right now, then that's fine! We'll get better as we go along.

Not all Heroics are that difficult. I've taken 69's and even 68's through some of them. It's a bit more important to have the right balance and party make up. Crowd control and aggro management are essential, though. New tanks need a good healer and 2 good cc's. New healers need a well-geared tank and 2 cc's. New dpsers need a good tank/healer combo and need to be able to cc one mob while dpsing another.

Mechanar is a good starter Heroic, especially with a Warlock in the party. Slave Pens is a piece of cake with a sap and a sheep. And Ramparts isn't extremely difficult (except for one pull).

We're very forgiving and supportive, as a guild. Nobody should be afraid of Heroics, if you're keyed. We'll get you through.

I'd love to see some more Kara virgin runs. It was a great time when I went the last time. My rogue Frisk would love to see the first boss, and turn in the beginner quest, but other than that.. I really don't mind taking Frolic to Kara.

I'm available to help with other instances, too. Favor has a long way to go with gear and wouldn't mind doing any instance.

ARGH I keep trying to reply to this and getting timed out. V. SHORT VERSION.

I am not trying to start a fight or sound angry and mean.

I did not intend to scare anyone away from heroics and tried to say that in my original post. All I wanted to do was point out that previously, with the higher rep cap, newly keyed characters were more likely to have better gear, and in heroics, most of the time stuff hits harder. I didn't mean to imply that newer players should not try a heroic, and I apologize if I gave that impression.

This is also not meant to imply that gear will compensate for good teamwork or experience. It won't, and this is why you should absolutely run heroics. It is the experience, not the gear, that makes a run "easy" or "hard."

Likewise, no magical combination of a "good" player of any class can compensate for experience and learning the teamwork successful heroics require. The best healer in the world is not going to make a first attempt by new players at a heroic super easy. Heroics are a challenge; they are supposed to be. It's ok if you wipe several times learning an encounter. They are difficult and take time to learn. I have been discouraged many times by being told that the dungeon I was in was super easy with a good healer.

Do heroics! Heroics are fun! But they are also sometimes frustrating, and that's ok. Just don't expect to fly through your first try because you have a good player of X class, and if you don't fly through on your first try, don't assume it's because the player you had of X class sucked.

I believe what everyone is trying to get across is this. When you sign an alt up for a raid be sure that this toon is ready for raiding. Do research. The info you're looking for is out there. If you're a tank see how much armor, health, avoidance, defense rating, etc. you need to start Kara. Healers, how much +healing, mp5, int, crit, health, etc. Dps, hit rating, attack power, and the countless other stats individual dps needs to be viable to bring to a raid. If you're too busy or lazy to do the research ask someone in the guild that plays this class and you know raids with them. I'm sure they'd be more than willing to help.

Another thing to keep in mind is gems and enchants. Which you should already know you need if you've brought a main into Kara. I didn't believe everyone when they first started telling me about enchants until I saw the difference myself. Ing is exactly right about what Heroics offer, experience. We're not talking Heroic Shattered Halls or Steamvaults here. But getting a group through some of the easier ones is a good challenge for undergeared toons. Learning to react with a particular class in emergencies is much more useful than any amount of stats you'll bring.

That being said, I understand the draw of alts. Hell, that's why I played a druid. I like doing different things and that's what I got with the druid. Others go a different way and level many different toons to 70 to get the same experience. So all we're asking is to do a little homework and come prepared with whatever toon you want to raid with. It makes for a much more enjoyable experience.

If we have enough alt type people interested in a Kara run then I saw go for it. Without taking away from the regular groups it would be cool to put a group together knowing that they may only get to 1 or two bosses that week. Everyone bring their own potions and food so we don't kill the bank.

Some ten man experience, some rep and some drops even a little every week is better than none. There is no point in waiting till we have a 3rd group capable of a full run, we did not start out running Kara that way so we should not expect our alts too.

If there is really that much interest we have nothing to loose, as long as everyone walks in with the same expectations.

We are discussing adding an "alt/virgin" run but we are also trying to leave at least some of the calendar free for non-Kara stuff.

I do think adding an alt/virgin kara group is a good idea. Maybe doing it every week is a but much for scheduling.

I could see an every-other-week type of thing. That way people aren't getting burnt out of too much kara, especially if they have a main and an alt they want to get through. Doing it on alternating weeks allows people to choose if they want to only do one a week, or do one run on week one and run two toons on week two.

There is one other thing to consider when preparing an Alt for Kara: Skill.

The current method of leveling and getting keyed is to have guild mates that are higher in level and gear drag you through an instance mindlessly. This tends to happen all the way from 1-70. Alts rarely pug. They never struggle and never have to employ those criticle skills that are essential in truely chaotic situations.

So my advice is this: Run 5-6 heroics with your alt before you even think about bringing it to Kara. I leveled Chaves from 60-70 as Retribution. During that time, Dalwin and Kharsian (RL friend of ours) dragged me and Kharthis through the instances. I think Kharthis can agree that the only true training he got before we went to Kara was the heroics. Running those normals is sleepy-time.

Healers have to learn to heal pro-actively rather than reactively. Tanks need to learn how to hold agro on multiple mobs at a time through both damage and healing. DPS needs to learn how/when to employ the survivability skills and ride the edge of the threat envelope on mobs that have a lot of hit points. They also need to learn the how to maximize their skill rotation for max DPS according to their spec.

These things are equally important to gear.

5-man heroics are fragile and difficult. Nobody can "take you through them". Each person has to contribute. I suggest hitting some of those on your alt and you will find yourself contributing to a Kara run rather than simply being a passenger.

It is no fun bringing your newly polished DPS'r to Kara only to find you can't get above the tanks on the damage meter. :eek:

An alternative to this is to level without having people drag you through everything. This is partly why we try very hard to get level-appropriate toons for things like Uldaman and Sunken Temple -- it'd be easier and faster to just have a bunch of 70s run it, but you get way better practice with a level-appropriate group.

Not everybody can do the "at level" method. I prersonally perfer it but I can understand the desire to skip content people think is meaningless. I had 2 guys here in CR with me, we created new guys and did nothing but 3 man every instance until about 37-38. We did them all when the bosses were orange/red as well. For example, we did SM Cath 3-man at level 37. The mobs were all 40-42. It was a friggin blast doing those instances with pure strategy and control!

I'm jealous. That sounds like fun!

I can totally picture you Jorack Crew People doing that, too.