A friend at my office recently got his dr00d up to 70. He's been looking for advice on stat numbers needed for tanking heroics, but seems to be getting conflicting answers. Apparently he got pwnd in H-Mech and H-Ramps yesterday and is searching for answers as to why.

Here's a signature with some of his tanking stats. That image will link to his armory page. Anyone able to give me some pointers or suggestions I can pass along to him?



His main has been bouncing back and forth between resto and enhancement shammy... so tanking is new to him. It's entirely possible his gear/stats are ok and he just doesn't know what combat cycles to do for max aggro generation.

- sansforme speaking -

I use Emmerald's site and other progs that show me what I need. WOWhead forums give different shades of answers from what I posted.

I can tank N-instances pretty well with the gear that I do have on now. However, I haven't gotten done any quests in BEM, NS, or SVM - which I know that their gear is pre-Kara, but not pre-H.

Jumping from a T5 healer to a n00b pre-Kara tank is quite a shift, but I trust you guys to help a shameless horde!

Believe me I would have made Nijidenchi on your server if I didn't have my main, Jihibukai already.

Thanks, y'all.

Armor. And he's missing a lot of enchants (both from enchanters and things like glyphs and the shoulder enchants). He could also use some more dodge (30% is a good goal to shoot for).

And stab him for using +str gems.

Ask him how well he tanks Shattered Halls, SLabs and Steamvaults. Those were the toughest non-heroic instances for me.

He can tell if it's his cycle that's the problem based on whether or not he's loosing aggro regularly or running out of rage. There's good references out there on the beset cycles to use.

There are good quest reward blues for gloves and wrists from quests in SMV

http://www.wowhead.com/?quest=10568

http://www.wowhead.com/?quest=10680


Also if you check out Zealot's Armory almost all of my items are pre-Heroic Kara. There are a couple exceptions but if he looks up those items they should all be obtainable.

Lots of things right off. He needs to get to 415 defense to be crit immune. He needs to get better gems for his Heavy Clefthoof set, he'll be keeping it a long time. Get the head and shoulder enchants like beam mentioned and resocket his gem slots with +stam or agility. Get Umberhowl's Collar from a quest in Shadowmoon Valley. He'll also get Manimal's Cinch from another questline in SMV. Get his weapon enchanted with +35 agility or if he doesn't want to drop that much get the lesser agility enchant. There is also a very nice ring from the first boss in Old Hillsbrad.

That should give him a pretty good start.


Edit: didn't notice the resilience so he's crit immune already.

Note: He's sitting at my desk... not using my account from another computer. :) I appreciate you guys giving him some pointers.

Sansforme Speaks:

I've FULL cleared N-SV several times for the Coilfang Arms just fine. I know about the Glyph of Ferocity from CE-revered for ~ 80K.

I haven't done N-SH or N-SL, because I'm too scared to do it. I have a VERY HIGH reputation as a healer and that is more important than me tanking. Other prominent guilds on our server HATE squishy tanks, which I really don't want to fall into.

Yeah - I know that I have +STR gems on ... that's why I'm asking y'all ... I should replace them with the blue gems (I know what they are, but not the names off the top of my head) ...


I don't generate a lot of rage either unless I cast Enrage - which is pointless anyway ... rage starvation ... is BAD.

To know why he's rage starved I'd have to know his attack rotation while tanking.

Another thing would be to drop Feral Aggression and put 1 point to fill out Shredding attacks and put 3 points into Primal Tenacity.

Um, if he can't/won't do normal SH or SL, he doesn't stand a chance in a heroic. Sorry to be blunt about it, but heroics are, well, hard. You're not going to find a single heroic that's easier than SH or SL.

For the +str gems, health is pretty good so get some +agi gems. If rage is a problem, the sequence isn't quite right. I'll dig up some references for that later. You shouldn't have too much of a problem with rage in a heroic, except for a few trash pulls. And use enrage, just don't go into a boss with enrage still active. For me, my typical sequence for trash is: pull (I usually use moonfire in heroics) -> enrage -> mangle -> lacerate -> lacerate -> lacerate -> mangle -> lacerate -> lacerate -> lacerate -> mangle ->... (sometimes I'll toss in a FF). The threat on lacerate is front loaded, so don't worry about the fact that you may push past five lacerates.

I looked at this and thought it said "beer drinking questions".

Brilliant!

I looked at this and thought it said "beer drinking questions".

That is, without a doubt, one question I would not need to ask.

Okay, there are some relatively easy to get pre-heroic items he's missing. Switch out some gems, add some enchants, and here's what he can get in a few nights:

Verdant Gloves (+15 Agi)
Manimal's Cinch
Umberhowl's Collar (+12 Sta)
Mark of Tyranny

Add Glyph of the Defender to the Hat
Add Aldor Inscription to the Shoulders
+15 Agi to the Cloak
+6 Stats to the Chest
Clefthide Leg Armor
Major Agi (+35) to Weapon

Re-gem the Clefthoof Set with all Solid Stars of Elune (+12 Sta)

Now he's sitting at:
13570 Health (with motw)
23116 Armor
Uncrittable
25.6 % dodge (a bit low, but doable until better gear comes along)

Add some food buffs and elixirs, and he should be able to take on most heroics. GET SOME PRACTICE TANKING in Steamvaults and Shattered Halls. Holding aggro on multiple mobs is essential, as is a well-timed bash.

Also, check out http://teethandclaws.blogspot.com and read -every- post there. The guy knows what he's talking about.

A few gems:
http://teethandclaws.blogspot.com/2007/08/art-of-pulling.html
http://teethandclaws.blogspot.com/2007/09/druid-threat-values.html

Another good blog: http://bigbearbutt.blogspot.com
http://bigbearbutt.blogspot.com/2007/10/bear-tanking-strategies-for-multiple.html

And one blog I just recently found: http://ramblingbear.blogspot.com
http://ramblingbear.blogspot.com/2008/01/its-armored-bear.html

Pre-Kara gear:
http://bigbearbutt.blogspot.com/2007/09/druid-tank-starter-gear-at-70.html

I knew you guys would come through with great advice. Here are his return comments and question.

To know why he's rage starved I'd have to know his attack rotation while tanking.

Another thing would be to drop Feral Aggression and put 1 point to fill out Shredding attacks and put 3 points into Primal Tenacity.

I don't want to sound like a complete n00b, but I really don't have a "set" sequence. I just "click smash."

/cower FTW!

My question is ... is Feral Aggression even useful running Karazhan and beyond?

I do like the idea of droppping FA to fill Shredding Attacks and fill out Primal Tenacity - especially when feared in SL.

Armor. And he's missing a lot of enchants (both from enchanters and things like glyphs and the shoulder enchants). He could also use some more dodge (30% is a good goal to shoot for).

And stab him for using +str gems.

Ask him how well he tanks Shattered Halls, SLabs and Steamvaults. Those were the toughest non-heroic instances for me.

He can tell if it's his cycle that's the problem based on whether or not he's loosing aggro regularly or running out of rage. There's good references out there on the beset cycles to use.

I know that my armor is lacking, that's obvious there. I know I need the CE Glyph of Ferocity I keep forget to purchase it. My dodge is crap and my hit is basically nil!

I was told to use STR gems ... I didn't know why at first, but from what I heard - my AP should be 910-ish (my source is from WOWhead)

Like I stated earlier, I don't have a "set" sequence ...

I've tanked N-SL, N-SV and other lower level instances just fine (to get my Karazhan key). I've cleared SV numerous times already to get the stupid Earthwarden that I've been drooling over.

I'm not loosing aggro ... I'm run out of rage sometimes and I pop Enrage when I have to, but that's a loss of 27% armor - which is BAD!

There are good quest reward blues for gloves and wrists from quests in SMV

http://www.wowhead.com/?quest=10568 <http://www.wowhead.com/?quest=10568>

http://www.wowhead.com/?quest=10680 <http://www.wowhead.com/?quest=10680>


Also if you check out Zealot's Armory almost all of my items are pre-Heroic Kara. There are a couple exceptions but if he looks up those items they should all be obtainable.

I know of these quests well - looking at Kaliban's Loot List and Emmerald list (the outdated and updated one) I'm going to get those pieces here soon.

Looking at Zealot's gear ... I'm content what he has and the pieces are very easy to get. No worries there, mate.

But, is that gear set good enough for pre-Heroic?

Lots of things right off. He needs to get to 415 defense to be crit immune. He needs to get better gems for his Heavy Clefthoof set, he'll be keeping it a long time. Get the head and shoulder enchants like beam mentioned and resocket his gem slots with +stam or agility. Get Umberhowl's Collar from a quest in Shadowmoon Valley. He'll also get Manimal's Cinch from another questline in SMV. Get his weapon enchanted with +35 agility or if he doesn't want to drop that much get the lesser agility enchant. There is also a very nice ring from the first boss in Old Hillsbrad.

That should give him a pretty good start.


Edit: didn't notice the resilience so he's crit immune already.

Yeah, my DEF is 413 and with the 14 in RES - I'm basically immune to CRIT.

When I get the gold for the correct gems, I'll hotglue those babies in!

I'll get the Glyph of Ferocity and the Inscription of the Vengeance from being exhalted with the Aldor.

I going to farm SV until I get exhalted with CE for the stupid Earthwarden and get the Major Agilty enchant from my resident enchanter.

I know that the Iron Band of the Unbreakable drops of LT. Drake in N-DURN - which I'll PUG it for the ring twice, but I can get the Violet Signet of Great Protector here momentarily - I just got my Karazhan key a couple of nights ago.

Um, if he can't/won't do normal SH or SL, he doesn't stand a chance in a heroic. Sorry to be blunt about it, but heroics are, well, hard. You're not going to find a single heroic that's easier than SH or SL.

For the +str gems, health is pretty good so get some +agi gems. If rage is a problem, the sequence isn't quite right. I'll dig up some references for that later. You shouldn't have too much of a problem with rage in a heroic, except for a few trash pulls. And use enrage, just don't go into a boss with enrage still active. For me, my typical sequence for trash is: pull (I usually use moonfire in heroics) -> enrage -> mangle -> lacerate -> lacerate -> lacerate -> mangle -> lacerate -> lacerate -> lacerate -> mangle ->... (sometimes I'll toss in a FF). The threat on lacerate is front loaded, so don't worry about the fact that you may push past five lacerates.

Like I said earlier - I have done SL with no problems ... it was cake. And I got my Adamanite Figurine ... "baby WOOT"

Believe it or not, I just discovered the "power" of Enrage ... I'm such a nub.

I love your sequence BTW, I always open with Faerie Fire ... because I'm already in bear form.

I'll take your advice, oh Night Elf master.


LASTLY: ... Can you give me RAW NUMBERS that I should have roughly in all STATS pre-Heroics? Do you think I can OT or even MT Karazhan right now?? Laugh all you guys want ... I just don't have a master to teach me everything ... and I prefer people that I can trust ... GO RAPSKALLION! LEGION OF DOOM!

LF bear master - PST! ... what do you think of my RESTO shaman, eh?


Jihibukai / Sansforme

In Karazhan your best bet while dpsing is to mangle and shread until the mangle runs out. If you have a druid tanking while you're in kitty then just shread. The problem with Ferocious Bite is that it drains your energy to nothing when a shread only uses 42 and does nearly as much damage. So it's better to just unleash the combo points near the end of a fight if you must.

I used to have 3 points in Primal Tenacity, but I dropped it to 1, and I don't miss it. I've got those points in Shredding Attacks and Brutal Impact. The extra stun time from BI is very helpful in instances, Kara, and pvp...especially against casters.

Don't worry about enraging if you need it. However, you say you're not losing aggro, but running out of rage? The only reason I can see for that is if you're spamming Maul. Save it for unlimited rage situations (ie Boss fights) when you have more than half your rage bar full. When your rage bar dips, don't Maul. Mangle when it comes up (every 12 seconds), lacerate, and swipe if you have more than 1 mob. Or tab-lacerate, but swipe works just as well in most situations.

When I'm pulling two mobs, I mark the X closest to me. Then in caster, I Wrath and Moonfire the X, shift into Bear, target skull, hit Enrage, Mangle, Lacerate, Swipe (if safe), Lacerate, Lacerate, Bash (this is where BI comes in), tab to X Mangle, Lacerate, tab back (if skull is still alive). If X is a caster, I save the bash for when I tab to it.

When I'm pulling three mobs, I cast Regrowth and Lifebloom on me just before I pull, Starfire Triangle, Moonfire X, shift, target Skull, Enrage Mangle Lacerate Swipe, tab X Mangle Swipe Bash, tab Triangle Mangle, tab Skull Mangle Swipe Swipe Mangle Swipe Swipe. Hotkey Feral Charge and Taunt in case one escapes (you should be facing the party). You want to remind the Mages and Hunters that they should sheep and trap away from where you're fighting (if you're holding 3).

Oh, and don't worry about your attack power or hit rating as a bear! Your high-threat abilities will generate enough rage. You're not there to do damage, but to hold the mobs arms behind their backs while others punch them in the face.

I don't want to sound like a complete n00b, but I really don't have a "set" sequence. I just "click smash."

That's how I used to roll too, but I had rage problems. I generally don't any more.

My question is ... is Feral Aggression even useful running Karazhan and beyond?

I do like the idea of droppping FA to fill Shredding Attacks and fill out Primal Tenacity - especially when feared in SL.

No, it's not useful. Ever, really. Drop it like a bad habit. Primal Tenacity is more handy than I would have thought. It's really nice to not get feared. And since you'll now be spamming Lacerate (right?), Shredding Attacks is quite handy.

I was told to use STR gems ... I didn't know why at first, but from what I heard - my AP should be 910-ish (my source is from WOWhead)

Like I stated earlier, I don't have a "set" sequence ...

I'm not loosing aggro ... I'm run out of rage sometimes and I pop Enrage when I have to, but that's a loss of 27% armor - which is BAD!

As Plasmo said, don't worry about your AP while in bear, not yet. It should be lowest on your priority list for bear gear. And work on the sequence, it really helps in non-boss fights. I know it's a bit boring and mechanical (it's much more fun to just mash buttons), but it will help your rage a lot. With Enrage, you should only fear it on boss fights. Yes, it's a big hit on your armor, but it doesn't last long and the rage is worth it. But with a good rotation, you should rarely need to use it mid-fight.

But, is that gear set good enough for pre-Heroic?

Not to speak for Fox, here, but Zealot does tank heroics.

I going to farm SV until I get exhalted with CE for the stupid Earthwarden and get the Major Agilty enchant from my resident enchanter.

In the meantime, make sure you have a Braxxis and have it enchanted. It's no Earthwarden, to be sure, but it's the closest you can get. And no sense showing up to heroics un-enchanted.

I love your sequence BTW, I always open with Faerie Fire ... because I'm already in bear form.

There's nothing wrong with opening with FF, however if you're always in bear form, you may be wasting 10 rage. If you have less than, say, 30-ish rage, shift back onto two legs, then drop back to bear. With Furor, you'll get 10 free rage, pop Enrage, then hit FF. FF does generate about the same amount of threat as Moonfire, so feel free to do it that way.

I'll take your advice, oh Night Elf master.

Oh, and take a shower every once in a while, Tauren. ;)

LASTLY: ... Can you give me RAW NUMBERS that I should have roughly in all STATS pre-Heroics? Do you think I can OT or even MT Karazhan right now?? Laugh all you guys want ... I just don't have a master to teach me everything ... and I prefer people that I can trust ... GO RAPSKALLION! LEGION OF DOOM!

I could answer, but that would give you a reason to not read all the links I posted. Okay, here's one more: http://druid.wikispaces.com/Minimum_Requirements

You're not geared for Kara yet, OT or MT. In Kara, OTs take a lot of damage and you'll anger your healers a lot if you try and OT with your current gear.

LF bear master - PST! ... what do you think of my RESTO shaman, eh?

You're on your own for a shaman!

- Sansforme speaks -

Raps isn't doing to well in the RL ... his leg is AFU. I'm babysitting him at work ! :(

However, I would like to say thank you for all the insight and help that you guys gave me.

The Armory is down so that you can't look at my current gear. I hunted gear from instances to make my n00b tanking set complete. I know that I have to work on the rings and trinkets which I'm going to do this week, i.e., Mark of Tyranny and getting another Iron Band of the Unbreakable. I'm also going to farm N-MECH for the Thoriumweave Cloak.

With that all said and done ... I did tank N-SV and I tried H-SP which I did fine. I just have to polish on my tanking skills (I'm going to read the links and forums that all of you gave me). I don't use feral charge, because the casters need a couple of seconds for the MP to regenerate. Is that a bad thing??

The last thing I need help on is ... enchants!

Can you please tell me what enchants I need on what gear? I'm at the mercy of the Alliance.

Your help is gladly appreciated ... thanks!


Sansforme.

WTF did Raps do to his leg?

Anyways, for enchants, you'll get varied answers. However, the best advice I've come across and what I live with is: slot for stamina and enchant for agility. IE, if you have the choice of an agility enchant and a fortitude enchant, lean towards the agility. There are two exceptions that come to mind: chest should be +6 to all stats and bracers should be +12 stamina.

Oh, and for a druid, never, ever, ever get a +armor enchant. It doesn't benefit from the bear form bonus, so it's a wasted enchant. Same with +hit point enchants.

Feel free to check out my armory page. It shows all my enchants, and Beam is currently wearing tank gear.

WTF did Raps do to his leg?

I'm not sure what I did to it. For the last month my right hamstring has been tight. For the last week practically every muscle on my right leg has been in a constant state of "I'm about to cramp up... but not quite". Problem is they don't all do it at the same time. In the morning it's my hip, afternoon and evening it's more my knee and calf area. Makes walking to stand outside for a smoke very painful.

I'm thinking it is a pinched nerve, because I can not think of any other type of ailment which would cause such constant pain in such a large area.

I'm going to the Dr this afternoon. We'll see what he says. Whatever he does, it better work quick. I'm about ready to either chop off my leg, or beg someone to just shoot me like a lame horse.

Yippie!!!

/drugs... he had better give me good drugs. mmmmmmmmm... drugs.

I think you're just getting old.

(Hope you feel better soon!)

Sounds like a nerve in your hip or lower back- hopefully not symptomatic of a slipped disc- thats no fun.

My doc diagnosed it as Sciatica. It's just a re-injury of an L4 bulging disk I gave myself while roughhousing with my bulldog last year. I'm on a weeks home rest.

Bad for my job... but fan-farking-tastic for my WoW addiction.

Bummer. Hope it gets better soon.

Enjoy the WoW!

That's too bad Raps. How's the bulldog?